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Subject: Simple yes but deep? rss

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Wikiro Trio
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Thinking about the game and im finding the "this game is simple but not deep" argument less and less justified.

I might even dare to say the game isnt that simple.

This is mainly based on the cards revealed, game play video, and updates. So its still a matter of "to be seen" however Im still interested in the for and against argument.

The game itself is basically taking the Blood Bowl skeleton and making a newish game out of it.

You get 11 models on both sides, roll for knock down/kills, roll armor saves, level characters, league play, and try to get in the backline for objectives (so far only one revealed campaign sheet).

However they use an infinity/dreadball mechanic using activation tokens called savage tokens. This is one of the major controversal mechanics in the game because you roll for activation tokens. So in worst case scenario your opponent waste all your initial tokens and cannot activate a model shutting their turns down. If you were the attacker all you would need to do is run and pillage. If you dont attack your opponent then they dont get a chance at gaining activation tokens. (Mission dependent of course)
However it seems that proper positioning can easily over come this problem. If you are the attackers you just need to put your big shield characters in the way of your opponent forcing them to attack and giving you a chance at more activation tokens. Being that early game means only 2 characters can be activated your opponent will need to punch a hole in your defences with one character and then use the second activation to get in and pillage. You have 1/3 chance of getting an activation token on the armor save. So though it could happen it seems highly unlikely that you are shut out of a turn. This also leads to the reason for activation tokens on the dice. It gives players the sense of getting a good result even when you fail an attack or defence.

Also there are upgrades that help mitigate the activation tokens as well as tribe cards.

A mechanic I find kind of find bland is the Tribe decks as they remind me of the hidden objective cards you see in other games and take that games. However this one plays them face up which is nifty because there is no hidden info. Still kind of bland as it forces or tempts your strat. You might not draw one you really need but your opponent does. So eh. Glad they added it but i think it could be done better.

The main stratagy seems to be in how the unique tribes play against eachother. They all start off unique and develop into even more unique units. Though most of the upgrades talk about only boosting save rolls and attack rolls you get some interesting ones that give you some unique abilities like "cook" , support, toughnes or range.
They have the glass cannon tribe, coordination tribe, activation syphon tribe, resource tribe, and activation token tribe (attack more rather than one big hit). Feel a shield tribe is in the works.

Each seems to have a specialty that might help them in specific campaigns. This is just an assumption and positive thinking. As the only mission we have is tents the activation token team seems like its at an advantage. Poke a hole in the enemy line (hope for kill), if KO then need an activation to pick up model, and 3rd activation run in and pillage. Glass cannon can rely on the kill more easily thusly getting a pillage in 2 activations. This means you as a defense need to either play offensively on one flank and hold on another. To slow the progress while you kill the required amount. The coop army want the enemy to come to them so they can use a lot of support to kill units. You punch a hole and run in? Now you gave them 2 kills/KO resourses. Tree people can just stand back up and hold them out while using area effect attacks.

Also now with the free for all, 2v2 and 2v1 added it adds a fun mid campaign coop battle and also takes care of that odd player league. For those that think it was tacked on Id say either yes or no its an obvious add that doesnt take that much to balance. Its just too close to archadia to pitch early on.



Finally the winning mechanic. The player that reaches the farthest on the resourse track wins which means the more you kill the worse you do. You need to KO and take resourses off the field or you will find yourself behind. Going back to blood bowl you want to pick up the package and hold onto it for later while minimalizing your losses. This makes the game a points war and I live that. Also you move around resourse bonuses throughout the game which give you benefits which adds another fun layer. On top of it like in blood bowl you get a reroll system if luck isnt on your side. On top of it you get a small colony to build an manipulate your players.
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Denmark
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Thanks for the BB comparison. Hadn't thought of it that way, but now it seems rather obvious...
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Trent Y.
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I appreciate this.

Any game will enamour certain players based on so many things. With Hate, I see a fun game with a solid if simple system. As you say, simple does not mean that it lacks depth.

This game reminds me of Mordheim meets the Others. I like both of those games.
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Jonathan Sulc
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I agree with most of what you point out. I think the problem of one tribe running out of savagery is mitigated by the fact that the other will likely run out of savagery quite quickly themselves if they don't attack you. They can't walk around your units and pillage all your tents if they have no savagery to activate their units.

I would add that I am slightly disappointed that the tribe decks are unchanging (within a given tribe). I think some (small amount of) deckbuilding or unlocking new cards through settlement upgrades, scenarios or mercenaries might have added a level of personalisation to the tribe development.

A unique building for each tribe's settlement or slightly different effects would be nice, but I imagine it would get very hard to balance.
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Nicolas Tremblay
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Just want to point out from the gameplay video, if a player runs out of Savagry, they skip their turn, yes, but then the round ends. Their opponent only gets 1 "free" turn before both players reset to 5 tokens.
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Wikiro Trio
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Oh thats cool thanks
 
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Drew Olds
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jtspecial wrote:
Thanks for the BB comparison. Hadn't thought of it that way, but now it seems rather obvious...



There are a few games in the Campaign Miniatures Skirmish Combat arena.

Necromunda seems to be the one everyone thinks of first. Blood Bowl definitely fits (even though actually killing opponents is less central to your objectives). Ninja All Stars, Company of Iron, Fairy Meat (which features cannibalism) and even Malifaux if you're playing the campaign will fit the bill.

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Wikiro Trio
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Are they this compact though. Blood bowl is a $400+ investment for it all. This barely reaches $200. For a league game this has a lot of strikes going for it
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odinsgrandson wrote:
jtspecial wrote:
Thanks for the BB comparison. Hadn't thought of it that way, but now it seems rather obvious...



There are a few games in the Campaign Miniatures Skirmish Combat arena.

Necromunda seems to be the one everyone thinks of first. Blood Bowl definitely fits (even though actually killing opponents is less central to your objectives). Ninja All Stars, Company of Iron, Fairy Meat (which features cannibalism) and even Malifaux if you're playing the campaign will fit the bill.



The only reason people compare this to Necromunda is that it came out a few months ago, which makes it the latest common reference point for games with a framing campaign element.

I was thinking of the actual meat and potatoes game play, which is nothing like Necromunda, or any other tabletop, skirmish game that takes place in 3d terrain, with rulers and tape meassures. Being played on a board with squares makes this way more compatible to BB.
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Drew Olds
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Or Ninja All Stars- it uses a board, has six factions, custom D6s, etc.

Wikiro wrote:
Are they this compact though. Blood bowl is a $400+ investment for it all. This barely reaches $200. For a league game this has a lot of strikes going for it


They all vary. Most miniatures combat games are designed to be infinitely expandable.

Blood Bowl has been expanded like mad over its history- they have somewhere in the area of 30 factions now (two or three of them vary in officialness, but are endorsed by at least one of the major BB league or tournament organizations).



Ninja All Stars wasn't a big hit, so it kept its initial 6 factions. It is roughly as compact as HATE (maybe getting all the individual ronin would bring the price up a bit).

Official Fairy Meat stuff is pretty cheap- go to drive-thru RPG and get all the books for about $50 total. They tried making a minis line to go with it, but the minis side tanked, so we're back to using whatever minis you have (or made) that can work as cannibalistic fairies.

Mordheim and Shadespire are built to be used with Warhammer minis- all in there would definitely cost a bundle.
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Wikiro Trio
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GW is also terrible in supporting their games. Blood Bowl only survived because Fans kept it alive. Which seems to be the life this game will live. Gorkamorka rules will be hitting my copy and they will be doing landship to landship battles
 
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Patrick Wilhelmi
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Hate has a lot of potential, but currently the haters and Nemesis fanboys cover this up with their giant buckets of cowpee.

That's sad.

On the other hand who cares?

The stretch goals are low and I do not care for the opinion of the easily influenced and prejudiced.
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Curt Frantz
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I would say this game has complexity more than it does depth, but to each their own.
 
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Wikiro Trio
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Thats fair.

Haters maybe but nemesis backers no. I havent seen a Nemesis backer promote that game here. If they did thays just cringy.
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Wikiro Trio
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Another way to think about it is chess only has 6-7 (bishop color) unique units. Hate has 4 at the start ranged, Prince, Support, and warriot units. Prince just has a higher chance of getting hits as his activation token aquisition can be halved by his cost to activate (not a good way to gain activation for activation sake. Warriors are about the same as Prince but 2 shields short. Range is only good for pecking at hp as a one activation roll leaves you where you started (one attack die). The more games you play the more unique units you get through upgrades to the point where its more than chess. Thats where I see the complexity and depth league games bring. One extra attack makes a warrior 2 up on activation tokens with only an activation. Tso on and so on

In a league game you can make an activation token collector, resourse collector, linebreaker, speed runner (not used for attack but for getting to objectios once the line breaker opens the way), cook, support line, and etc
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Jason Miller
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Huh.

That was probably the most insightful explanation of the game I've yet read.

And you kind of pushed me more towards backing.

Damn you.
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Trent Y.
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dr.morton wrote:
Hate has a lot of potential, but currently the haters and Nemesis fanboys cover this up with their giant buckets of cowpee.


Hah. This exactly!

I get that this game has detractors. I don’t get that they are constantly subscribed and insist on chiming in on every thread about how much the people who like this game are wrong. I guess haters need validation?
 
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Jason Miller
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Methinks you're painting with too broad a brush when trying to blame those backing Nemesis for starting a ruckus.
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R. K.
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Wikiro wrote:
The main stratagy seems to be in how the unique tribes play against eachother. They all start off unique and develop into even more unique units.


Sorry for the quip, but looks like you're trying to wish something into existence .

But seriously, what makes them so different? As you said, "most of the upgrades talk about only boosting save rolls and attack rolls". The same is true for upgrades and warriors - it's "+1 this" or "re-roll that".

I guess it's a matter of context. What is unique to you might be generic to me. When I read 'unique tribes', I think of asymmetric gameplay, new mechanisms, a significant shift in the way you play. For example, characters in BattleCON are - by my definition - unique. They play completely differently, bend the rules, add new ones. The same goes for different aliens in Cosmic Encounter. They are unique. Rolling additional attack dice is not. IMHO, of course.

 
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Eðvarð Hilmarsson
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El Padre wrote:
Wikiro wrote:
The main stratagy seems to be in how the unique tribes play against eachother. They all start off unique and develop into even more unique units.


Sorry for the quip, but looks like you're trying to wish something into existence .

But seriously, what makes them so different? As you said, "most of the upgrades talk about only boosting save rolls and attack rolls". The same is true for upgrades and warriors - it's "+1 this" or "re-roll that".

I guess it's a matter of context. What is unique to you might be generic to me. When I read 'unique tribes', I think of asymmetric gameplay, new mechanisms, a significant shift in the way you play. For example, characters in BattleCON are - by my definition - unique. They play completely differently, bend the rules, add new ones. The same goes for different aliens in Cosmic Encounter. They are unique. Rolling additional attack dice is not. IMHO, of course.



I dont know how different things have to be for you to consider it unique.

I think the variety is pretty good.

Take for example the difference in playing Sarrassa who have undead troops that can be brought back to life via skills or card play and shaman that can use a aoe nuke. These guys bring heavy pressure but are forced to win in half the time of other factions. Unique upgrades also focus on gaining extra resources (food).

Other tribes also tend to their own unique focus, with Um Gra having several unique options as long as they lead in hate and Um Tull using missed attacks to spread debuffs.

I dont think that going overboard with text heavy special abilities is really needed (there are some anyway). Having a pair of warriors that have an attack buff and defense debuff gives you interesting choices in how you position and use them. Same if your champion has a support buff, you can make interesting choices and form a stronger line then your enemy at a critical point. The situational buffs also lead to interesting choices, such as using specific troops (that get a bonus while carrying a body) to kidnap your fallen enemies (or rescue your own).

Mercs also shake things up quite a lot since they allow you to abandon the 6 warriors, 2 youngbloods, Shaman, Champion and Prince routine. Having to defend an objective against Maw who terrifies troops out of the way would be a unique situation.

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Wikiro Trio
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Pretty much ^^. Uniqueness is in the eye of the beholder. Blood bowl is very unique and/or potenial for uniquesness by upgrade choice. I also discuss it better in the OP. Also the upgrade and scar cards are TBD so its not for you or me to say how unque you can make the units. I keep asking for Upgrade/scar card index but I think they will release it later in the campaign.

Mercs seem like they add a lot now
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Scott B
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Anyone know the dice probabilities? We have sword, shield, wild and savage. Are the other 2 sides sword and shield?
 
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Eðvarð Hilmarsson
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marv_art wrote:
Anyone know the dice probabilities? We have sword, shield, wild and savage. Are the other 2 sides sword and shield?


As far as I can tell from looking at the dice in pictures then it does indeed seem to have 2 shields and 2 swords, with a wild and a savagery on the last.

This gives each dice 50% chance of being a hit or a defend (if the wild is used for that effect).
 
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