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Subject: Reservations... rss

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Fergus Conolly
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So - hopefully someone can advise otherwise on this...

I'm a BIG fan of campaign based game-play. And have always thought that AE would hugely benefit from this. It would get to the table a lot more often...

My concern is that the strategy taken with this stand-alone expansion will trump the earlier content. Given the choice between playing AE Legacy in a campaign context and AE Basic - the campaign one will always win out. And why would I ever go back to playing the basic characters in the earlier sets when I have a custom one?

And it also seems the earlier content will simply be an addendum to the campaign and not included? I'm not liking the basic content being orphaned off like this.

Could the Kickstarter be multi-tiered? With cheaper tier providing just the campaign material for us heavily invested in the previous content? With another option for others to buy a larger set that includes the previous content? It sounds like a no to me due to how the whole thing has been structured...

It seems this KS might not be an auto-buy for me (as the previous have been). Or rather - I might flog all the earlier content...
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I don't get this. Sometimes you don't have the time or committed group of people to play a campaign. So Aeon's end is perfect for that. You may like the created character a lot, but in the end everything gets samey so the normal character are a good change of pace. Don't see any issue here, both modes/games will (hopefully) work well together.
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Fergus Conolly
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borsook wrote:
I don't get this. Sometimes you don't have the time or committed group of people to play a campaign. So Aeon's end is perfect for that. You may like the created character a lot, but in the end everything gets samey so the normal character are a good change of pace. Don't see any issue here, both modes/games will (hopefully) work well together.


It's precisely because I don't have the time - but do have the people. When I sit down to play AE I want to have the best experience possible with my regular group. I'm lamenting the fact that all the other content is not being used. I will not be interested in playing Basic AE while an AE Legacy game is in session. And there are better experiences for me to play than AE Basic.

It just seems a shame that they've taken this path - a campaign 'hub' expansion that folded in existing content would have been really amazing!
 
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Matt
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I would be very surprised if you can't use your existing content in legacy games. They have said a large portion of the legacy expansion content will be usable with old content, in the form of new spells, relics, enemies, etc. So I would imagine the inverse is true as well. Are you saying they are including previous material in this expansion? That wasn't my understanding, so where did you hear that?
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Legitimate concerns. I have some too. Without more information this feels like it will lessen all existing content. I love the idea but I've invested a lot in this and have been burned once with the reprint and many time by IBC. I'd love to support this but I want campaign rules for existing content too and I don't see a legacy game doing that.
 
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Fergus Conolly
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Ok... let me put this another way.

I walk into my FLGS. There's a copy of AE Legacy and AE Basic on the shelf.

Why would I buy Basic over Legacy? After finishing Legacy why would I buy Basic? Yes it's more 'content' but I would say it's an inferior and very different experience.

But what I understand is NOT going to be the case: The shop-owner explains that if I buy BOTH together the Campaign experience is enhanced by a wider amount of content potentially being used. I might even play the campaign again and have a very different experience with all that extra content.

The above is what I was hoping for...but I understand it won't be this. If this kind of thing works for FFG with Imperial Assault / Descent / Mansions of Madness etc it seems a shame they haven't done this here.

 
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Vince De Zutter
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fconolly wrote:
If this kind of thing works for FFG with Imperial Assault / Descent / Mansions of Madness etc it seems a shame they haven't done this here.


Yet those aren't legacy games. And you can't deny some sort of power creep in different expansions, especially in Imperial Assault. The sheer amount of corrected cards for skirmish mode are the prime example of that.

Play through the AI campaign with only core content and then do it again with as much content from Heart of the Empire as you possibly can. You'll see the difference immediately.
 
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Roger BW
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We don't have enough information yet.

I'm not at all a legacy games fan, but I'm waiting to find out what AEL will offer.
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Fergus Conolly
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Vinceness wrote:
fconolly wrote:
If this kind of thing works for FFG with Imperial Assault / Descent / Mansions of Madness etc it seems a shame they haven't done this here.


Yet those aren't legacy games. And you can't deny some sort of power creep in different expansions, especially in Imperial Assault. The sheer amount of corrected cards for skirmish mode are the prime example of that.

Play through the AI campaign with only core content and then do it again with as much content from Heart of the Empire as you possibly can. You'll see the difference immediately.


But two of them are Campaign games. That surely is what is the attraction of the AE Legacy - not component defacement? And I hope AE Legacy is not a 'true' Legacy game as that would be another negative factor for me to wrangle over... What I'm referring to is the value proposition of content that expands and enhances the entire games 'eco' system.
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Vince De Zutter
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fconolly wrote:
But two of them are Campaign games. That surely is what is the attraction of the AE Legacy - not component defacement? And I hope AE Legacy is not a 'true' Legacy game as that would be another negative factor for me to wrangle over... What I'm referring to is the value proposition of content that expands and enhances the entire games 'eco' system.


From what we've heard so far, the campaign is the "component defacement" aspect. You play through it to create your breach mage, and that breach mage can then be used (in a balanced way) to complete content from the previous two games or AE:Legacy.

Legacy campaigns and regular campaigns are two entirely different beasts.
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Crazed Survivor
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It's a bit early to draw that kind of conclusions.
Aside from testers, no-one knows how the game will work so you'll have to wait for the campaign to know if it will be for you or not.

But I'm fairly confident the Legacy campaign is self-contained and can't be played with the previous content, even though the new content is compatible with the previous content.

If you want to play a campaign game, there has been two fan-made campaigns released this month. One is a solo marathon, the other one uses a Location deck and permanent bonuses depending on your wins and losses. Check these out.

As for your custom-built character: you can't say how it will be for now. I'm never using the characters I designed myself, even though I like them a lot.
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Jim P
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fconolly wrote:
Ok... let me put this another way.

I walk into my FLGS. There's a copy of AE Legacy and AE Basic on the shelf.

Why would I buy Basic over Legacy? After finishing Legacy why would I buy Basic?



Always the basic game. Every single time.

If I see a game I think I might like, I do some research, then I buy it. If I don't like it, I'll sell it on, probably get back a good chunk of what I paid.
If I buy a legacy game, play it and don't like it, the chances of selling it at a decent price are minimal.

I've been playing Pandemic for years, but didn't invest in Legacy until pretty recently. It was interesting, but once our Season 2 campaign is over, that's us done with Legacy whilst Classic/Iberia/Rising Tide will get played again and again.

I paid the extra tenner for removable stickers on Gloomhaven because I'd rather pay out the extra for something I can sell on in good conscience if I need to, than cut the corners and be stuck with it - but I'd have preferred it if things were done with campaign sheets etc and the game wasn't disposable.

fconolly wrote:
I would say it's an inferior and very different experience.


You would say that, and that's your opinion, which you're entitled to - but lots of people will feel differently. It seems excessive to assume that everyone feels the same as you (I know I don't)


[edit - formatting]
 
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Fergus Conolly
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Hi Jim P. Fully agree with your points. But what I'm appealing for is for the game to have campaign play - and single one off play. And NOT be a Legacy game precisely for the reasons you state. I'm using the term AE Legacy because that is what they're calling it. I genuinely hope it's AE The Campaign instead...
 
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Fergus Conolly
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To further clarify - the 'Legacy' issue is a separate one to my query (and is being debated on another thread)

This is about how this new expansion sits in the canon of the other material - and what I fear might be a missed opportunity. And personally puts me into a quandary with the complete collection of other material I have.

AE Basic (original or whatever) is languishing on my shelf as i have better games to play. And I was waiting for this Kickstarter campaign to kick it back into being my favourite. But from what I'm hearing it's not going to do that.

Let's see what the Kickstarter brings...
 
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Chris Edwards
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fconolly wrote:
Hi Jim P. Fully agree with your points. But what I'm appealing for is for the game to have campaign play - and single one off play. And NOT be a Legacy game precisely for the reasons you state. I'm using the term AE Legacy because that is what they're calling it. I genuinely hope it's AE The Campaign instead...


While AE The Campaign would be awesome, all the info we have indicates that it won't be what we're getting. I'm expecting the campaign here to be relatively limited, and mostly pre-determined to the point that replaying it over and over would not be very exciting except for the prospect of getting another new Mage out of it.

While this might not be what you want, it would mean that your other concerns do not apply. This campaign would not make other Aeon's End content obsolete, this would simply be a fun, temporary diversion from the main game. If you don't like the main game the way it is, this won't change it much.
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Crazed Survivor
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weasel47 wrote:
fconolly wrote:
Hi Jim P. Fully agree with your points. But what I'm appealing for is for the game to have campaign play - and single one off play. And NOT be a Legacy game precisely for the reasons you state. I'm using the term AE Legacy because that is what they're calling it. I genuinely hope it's AE The Campaign instead...


While AE The Campaign would be awesome, all the info we have indicates that it won't be what we're getting. I'm expecting the campaign here to be relatively limited, and mostly pre-determined to the point that replaying it over and over would not be very exciting except for the prospect of getting another new Mage out of it.

While this might not be what you want, it would mean that your other concerns do not apply. This campaign would not make other Aeon's End content obsolete, this would simply be a fun, temporary diversion from the main game. If you don't like the main game the way it is, this won't change it much.


While campaign games are more replayable than Legacy games, they tend to be samey anyways, in terms of story and gameplay variety. You won't ever be able to re-capture the feeling of your first campaign.
Currently being in an Arkham Horror campaign, a Pandemic Legacy Season 1 campaign, a Kingdom Death: Monster campaign, an Aeon's End Solo Marathon, having played 7 7th Continent campaigns, and with a Grimslinger campaign around the corner, I'm having fun with some of these when playing them again precisely because I know what to expect and can plan and min-max my plays, but I can positively say that if you don't like doing the same thing over and again and only want the discovery, these are basically Legacy games for you: played once and done.

Except they have a selling value on the secondary market, that is.
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I don't quite get this reservation: I imagine the Aeon's End campaign to be ~ 8 games of scripted Aeon's End games (same boss / mechanics, maybe same markets, etc) that results in you finishing creating your character. After you finish the campaign, you now have a new character and a bunch of different new bosses/spells/etc to add to your ever growing Aeon's End collection. I certainly wouldn't want to play the campaign again since I imagine the static missions would get stale, and after the campaign, Aeon's End Legacy is effectively the same thing as Aeon's End War Eternal, where it just adds a ton of extra content to mix and match with your existing components.

This game was designed to have a ton of replayability even after you finish the legacy component, and given the current structure of Aeon's End, this game should be the most replayable legacy game out on the market and actually keep the old content relevant.

fconolly wrote:
Ok... let me put this another way.

I walk into my FLGS. There's a copy of AE Legacy and AE Basic on the shelf.

Why would I buy Basic over Legacy? After finishing Legacy why would I buy Basic? Yes it's more 'content' but I would say it's an inferior and very different experience.


So you've finished Aeon's End Legacy, and now have a full fledged character and some bosses to play against. You love the game, so you play your custom characters vs the bosses on harder difficulties (just like the current games), but you want more spells, more bosses, more everything. Oh hey! There's this thing called Aeon's End that you can buy to have more content to play against! This seems compelling enough to me, and is way better than something like Pandemic Legacy, where I actually just have 0 desire to buy the original Pandemic games. The nice thing about Aeon's End legacy is that it should be completely backwards compatible with the previous games, and the game is great even without the legacy components (which isn't true for games like Pandemic Legacy imo).

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Yan Bertrand
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Well this one isn't going to raise a lot of love, but...
I think what we're saying is: Kevin is building what we anticipate to be a better game than the previous one. I am part of those who regret having bought what will (likely) become a lesser game, but I'm happy that Kevin keeps his skill up and surprising us, and that overall games keep getting better (or at least offering more and more diversity).

So, we could just call it History of Gaming and end up with a "c'est la vie"?
 
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Blake Curry
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Herman92 wrote:
Well this one isn't going to raise a lot of love, but...
I think what we're saying is: Kevin is building what we anticipate to be a better game than the previous one. I am part of those who regret having bought what will (likely) become a lesser game, but I'm happy that Kevin keeps his skill up and surprising us, and that overall games keep getting better (or at least offering more and more diversity).

So, we could just call it History of Gaming and end up with a "c'est la vie"?


Well consider that sequels almost always strive to be better and add more to its predecessor anyway. Everyone says Dominion is the best. No it isn't. Dominion is relatively plain, and then it has expansions that adds a lot of interesting mechanics to it.

So what you're really asking is: if you go to an FLGS and see a 1st edition of a game and a 3rd edition of a game, why would you buy the 1st edition? Chances are that you wouldn't because the 3rd will have things even more fine tuned.

Now, in the case of Aeon's End, it's all compatible to be used together. War Eternal added a few more mechanics that are more interesting but that still allows you to mix the content in with the first edition. Legacy appears to be doing something similar. There will be new mechanics and stuff to mix in with the first two, and as a bonus, there will also be a hopefully cool campaign mode.

So it's probably going to be the best of the three, but...when you think about it, it should be, and that's a good thing.
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Herman92 wrote:
Well this one isn't going to raise a lot of love, but...
I think what we're saying is: Kevin is building what we anticipate to be a better game than the previous one. I am part of those who regret having bought what will (likely) become a lesser game, but I'm happy that Kevin keeps his skill up and surprising us, and that overall games keep getting better (or at least offering more and more diversity).

So, we could just call it History of Gaming and end up with a "c'est la vie"?


When War Eternal came out, did you regret buying Aeon's End? To me, Aeon's End: Legacy shouldn't be really that different from War Eternal. You play out the legacy components of Aeon's End Legacy, and now you have effectively War Eternal 2.0 with a bunch of content you can add to your Aeon's End collection. This isn't Pandemic // Pandemic Legacy where Pandemic Legacy totally ruins the original game, this is more like Dominion where you just get endless amounts of expansions that you can add to your ever growing collection. I for one, would love to have infinite amounts of Aeon's End content, so I can't imagine having any regrets buying the previous games when they can still be utilized alongside the new cards.
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Herman92 wrote:
Well this one isn't going to raise a lot of love, but...
I think what we're saying is: Kevin is building what we anticipate to be a better game than the previous one. I am part of those who regret having bought what will (likely) become a lesser game


It won't. Same as the team made sure War Eternal didn't make base game irrelevant (and it sure isn't), I'm pretty sure they followed the same path with the new stand-alone.
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Roger BW
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Herman92 wrote:
I think what we're saying is: Kevin is building what we anticipate to be a better game than the previous one.
Would you rather he built a worse game?
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Firedrake wrote:
Herman92 wrote:
I think what we're saying is: Kevin is building what we anticipate to be a better game than the previous one.
Would you rather he built a worse game?

Definitely not,and that's why I wrote it. It seems "in the natural order of things", from my perspective. (Looks like I was read as meaning the contrary?)

To answer another comment above:
I'm not sure yet how I feel about my purchase of War Eternal, because it hasn't gotten to the table that much yet. (Only once, for a solo game. I'm suffering from the "too many games" syndrom. cool ) To my eyes, it's definitely "more" of the same as Aeon's End good experience, with maybe extra variety added compared to the variety added by smaller expansions before War Eternal. Nothing breakthrough?
But indeed I was happy I got to upgrade Aeon's End from its first edition through the kickstarter, 'cause the first edition, in my eyes, is inferior to the second edition (except for the big box, which I'm very happy to own).

All in all, in case it wasn't apparent, I'm happily curious about how AE: Legacy will turn out.
 
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qxc0 wrote:
You will receive the usual amount of player cards that are compatible with existing Aeon's End content.

You will have a new set of nemesis basic cards that are compatible outside the legacy experience.

Most of the nemeses will be compatible outside the legacy experience.

The mages you create will be compatible.

You'll get a narrative, long form ~campaign experience where you build a character, game by game. When it's all done, you'll have a whole new slew of content to replay again and again.

We hope that this approach will appease fans who are interested in the legacy experience and also those who just want more stuff to play with all around.
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Chris Edwards
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Herman92 wrote:
All in all, in case it wasn't apparent, I'm happily curious about how AE: Legacy will turn out.


I think the part that people were reacting to was you being unhappy that you got an "inferior version" by getting the base game. With a game like this, the more content you have, the more interesting it gets. It's all about the combinations. The "best" version of the game is "all of it."
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