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Valeria: Card Kingdoms – Shadowvale» Forums » General

Subject: Love the game, some disappointment in this expansion rss

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Matt
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First off, let me just say that I LOVE this game. It's gateway enough I can introduce it to anybody, even newbie gamers, with immense ease. Yet it has enough meat on it to be playable by gamers too. Fantastic! I have Flames & Frost, and (I think) all of the mini-expansions so far.

When I saw the email about this being on KS, I was super excited. The relics sound really cool, and like a neat way to change the game up even more game-to-game. However, I was disappointed in the lack of variety in the new citizens and monsters. They don't seem to DO anything different from what we have already. In fact, many look exactly like things I already have. For example, the Dire Rat is exactly (from what I can tell) the same as the Goblin. 1 fight, for 1 gold and 1 point. Banshee is nearly identical to the Gelatinous Cube. Etc. The citizens are equally...un-different. (Yes, I made that word up, just now).

I felt that Flames and Frost changed things quite a bit, with the wild resources (both as costs and as rewards...I think? Or at least as rewards), and what seemed like much tougher monsters, and with more ways to gain points tokens straight up. That was great! It felt like a step "up". But this expansion just feels like a step...sideways. They definitely feel like they could have just been a part of the base game, from what I've seen so far.

The new buildings seem to add some neat things, and I appreciate that.

I'm wondering what some of the new Dukes and Duchesseseseses look like, because we haven't seen more than the "put yourself here" card (that may just be placeholder anyway? Not sure...).

As I said, the Relics sound really cool. Definitely a neat new way to change the game up. Love the idea. However, the rest of the expansion made me just go "Oh. Just...more...of exactly the same". And I mean, I like more. Heck, I have this weird sickness where if a game has expansions, I'm more inclined to buy it, just so I can buy the expansions too. But I was just really hoping for some more "new" to go with the "more". Like it would be really cool if the Necromancer could let you flip back a monster of yours that you had previously defeated, and someone later flipped over. Or if the Bandit could rob from some new caravan mechanism, where there is a caravan card with X gold on it, so there could be a race to buy the bandit and hope you roll right on your turn to take some of that gold, and once it's gone, it's gone.

With the monsters, it would have been really cool to see some kind of "bribeable" humanoids, where you can use gold to defeat them. Other games have done this (Marvel Legendary comes to mind), and it works great. Or maybe a monster that, when you defeat it, something bad happens in addition to the good (like they take out one of your citizens - or a citizen in the stacks to add even more control over when the game ends, or another monster you've previously defeated - giving more unique possibilities for buildings or citizens to get those back). Or maybe there are monsters that remove citizens from the stacks until they're killed. Wow, would that put a different spin on things, if there was this monster you didn't care about killing, and maybe it even had 0 rewards, but it was programmed to keep killing citizens with the icons your duke/duchess rewarded you for! (Plus it would totally fit the theme of this one! whistle)

Maybe some of the new dukes/duchesses could work in conjunction with some new citizens/buildings/monsters, and you could get points for cards removed from the game, as another idea.

I don't mean to be Debbie Downer. I really love this game and everything I have so far. But this felt like a back-slide from the previous content that all seemed to add more gamey-ness to the game. This just feels like a replica of the base game, and that was disappointing to me.

I also say all this knowing full well that we've only been shown a fraction of the cards. If there are some really unique things that haven't been shown yet, this is less of a complaint and more of a plead to show us that. As it is now, I was just kind of let down by what I saw, and plan on only buying Relics by itself when it's available.

Sorry for the rant, and I'm hoping that I'm just flat wrong, and there is some more in terms of unique mechanisms that just hasn't been shown.
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Miklos Kovacs
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EXACTLY what i feel!

I also like your ideas and here is one of my:

A monster type that has not only strength cost but a symbol requirement. I know its something like a domain mixed with a monster but why not.
Or let's twist it and when you kill a monster it kills one of your citizen. Holy people killing vampires but also dying is definitely authentic.
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Matt
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Thanks!

Love those ideas! I just feel like there is a LOT of unexplored area, and this theme is ripe for some of it (like your ideas). I think a monster that requires a holy person, or 2 helmet people, would be a great idea!
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David @DailyMagicGames
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Hi Matt and Miklos...

Thanks for your posts and for all of the ideas you've both listed. We love it when fans are so wrapped up ion the Valeriaverse that they're overflowing with excitement and ideas like these.

We ALWAYS read these posts and new ideas from fans like yourself help inspire us to add new things to VCK. The Events cards were a backer idea and other ideas we've read have influenced various other mechanics in VCK. So, keep on sharing what you're thinking.

Also, as you noted, we haven't shown all of the stretch goal cards yet, so there may be a few surprises yet to come.

I look forward to seeing more ideas posted here during this campaign.

David
Daily Magic Games
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Pete Thane
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The Dire Rat has been changed now requiring both strength and magic but giving 2 wild and so has the Dragoon, who had same effect as the F&F Templar. This includes a new Slay mechanic; during the Harvest phase kill a monster.

Update 4 has a an explanation how Shadowvale came about and why there were these "copied" abilities/effects initially displayed.

There are some new art Peasants and Knights too with the same abilities but the bottom symbol/type is different to the previous F&F set ones, although these need unlocking at the moment.
 
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Kenneth
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I didn't back Flame & Frost because it apparently made the game significantly meaner. Has there been any indication of whether this expansion adds more "meanness" or not?
 
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Matt
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I saw the update mentioning the origins of this, and that makes a lot of sense. It absolutely makes sense to keep it simpler for a more mass market audience.

Unfortunately it also reinforces my opinion that I'll likely end up passing on this one, and holding out for the next big standalone expansion. I'll likely pick up Relics at a convention (any idea on the pricing this will carry?).

And thanks very much for your straightforward update, explaining how it came to be. I wish you'd had more success in getting a mass market store to pick the game up (as I'm sure you do too )! They are missing out for sure!

Good luck with the rest of the campaign, and I'm very happy for you guys that it's doing so well!
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Black Alexidor
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I really like the theme of this expansion. Probably my favorite so far, but it's unfortunate that no new mechanics are really being introduced and I'm not a huge fan of the relics that I've seen, they seem to take away from the game, imo.

I'll definitely be picking this one up on retail since being in Canada these Kick Starters are and there are no 'extras' that are worth grabbing for me.
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Fred
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I am glad I found this topic as I was considering backing the expansion (I am still waiting for the base game and Flames& frost).

So, is the latest word still that this expansion does not introduce any new mechanic and that cards remain mechanically simple ?

thanks !
 
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Matt
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If you are already getting Flame and Frost, I think the only new things are the one citizen who gives you a free slay action (which I think is neat), and anything new the buildings do. Some appear to flip citizens in other realms, which I think is new, though I've not thumbed through the F&F domains, and am just going by memory. The other new piece is the Relics expansion, which you should be able to get later at conventions and possibly the BGG store.

Hopefully someone can correct me if any of that is incorrect. Again, I'm not trying to bad mouth the expansion, just saying it's not for me.
 
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Fred
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mjortman wrote:
If you are already getting Flame and Frost, I think the only new things are the one citizen who gives you a free slay action (which I think is neat), and anything new the buildings do. Some appear to flip citizens in other realms, which I think is new, though I've not thumbed through the F&F domains, and am just going by memory. The other new piece is the Relics expansion, which you should be able to get later at conventions and possibly the BGG store.

Hopefully someone can correct me if any of that is incorrect. Again, I'm not trying to bad mouth the expansion, just saying it's not for me.


ok thanks, that's a bit disappointing :-(
 
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Matt
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Welcome.

If you read through their updates, one explains that this expansion was intentionally made "simpler" than maybe it would have been, in an attempt to get it in big-box stores. So it makes perfect sense, and obviously a lot of people are very happy to just get more variety in their box. So I'm glad the campaign has done very well for them.

I'm just more excited to see the standalone expansion that I think is next year!
 
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Fred
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mjortman wrote:
Welcome.

If you read through their updates, one explains that this expansion was intentionally made "simpler" than maybe it would have been, in an attempt to get it in big-box stores. So it makes perfect sense, and obviously a lot of people are very happy to just get more variety in their box. So I'm glad the campaign has done very well for them.

I'm just more excited to see the standalone expansion that I think is next year!


Yeah, I think I will do the same and maybe buying some of the small packs meanwhile.
On the other hand, there seems to have a few nice domains and the relics, whch look interesting.
 
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Matt
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Yeah, I definitely plan on picking up Relics at a convention. I usually see them at both Origins and Gen Con, and plan on getting it there. Who knows...maybe it will even be before the print for the Kickstarter is complete.

I agree that some of the domains are interesting. The new peasant/knight combo are interesting too. Just not enough for me to pay $28 or $30 for everything else. At least, I don't think so. Who knows...maybe I'll cave eventually. But I just don't see the value there right now for me.
 
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Fred
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So, guys, still not planning to back after the latest reveals?

I don't have a lot of XP with the game (only played on TTS and still waiting for my copy of base + F&F to arrive) but the extra domains and the relics look interesting right ?
It is true that the monsters and the citizens do not look particularly "new" (except for the art of course...)

 
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Clayton Helme
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More variety is more variety, otherwise the game ends up stale. That is why I am backing the expansion.
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Y P
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Matt,

Your post is basically word-for-word exactly how I feel. Love VCK and a big FOMO/completionist guy, but even so this expansion isn't doing it for me. I also love variety, but as of Flames & Frost there's already so much variety in citizens, monsters, and domains, that simply having more isn't enough incentive IMO.

I do hope the Warden card for the Undead Samurai is included in the retail Relics expansion as mentioned as a possibility:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dailymagicgames/valeria...

Speaking of completionist, that's one card that needs to happen that I hope won't be impossible to find after the KS campaign is over.

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Matt
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lillumultipass wrote:
So, guys, still not planning to back after the latest reveals?

I don't have a lot of XP with the game (only played on TTS and still waiting for my copy of base + F&F to arrive) but the extra domains and the relics look interesting right ?
It is true that the monsters and the citizens do not look particularly "new" (except for the art of course...)



For me, I'm still not backing. I still plan on picking up the Relics expansion at a convention. The domains do seem okay, but not enough to justify samey citizens and monsters, which are the main draw for me. Domains play a much smaller effect on games, and therefore aren't with it to me by themselves, imho.
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Ryan Brown
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1.For Matt:
Wow bro, a hell of a review! (literally ..)
Thank you, it helped a lot.

2.For Magic Daily:
Seems that the spirit of the game sold her soul and turn into buisness.
The art is still beautiful (obviously) but there is no real change at the game itself.. No real challenge or a bigger space for strategy..
Another amazing cards and another extention, while buying them is almost like paying on a new Valeria game.. 
(and even if not, you still want your passion
for a game to grow with any extension, and to feel that the waiting and the longing for it are rewarding.)
Instead of giving us more of the same, I truely wish you will rock our world and put some real heart (and not only art) into this soul of that game.
"

Disappointing.
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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rangostarr wrote:
1.For Matt:
Wow bro, a hell of a review! (literally ..)
Thank you, it helped a lot.
Although I wrote a comment by the same spirit
at the official "Daily Magic" presentation of that game (...Shaddowvale)
in youtube:

2.For Magic Daily:
Seems that the spirit of the game sold her soul and turn into buisness.
The art is still beautiful (obviously) but there is no real change at the game itself.. No real challenge or a bigger space for strategy..
Another amazing cards and another extention, while buying them is almost like paying on a new Valeria game.. 
(and even if not, you still want your passion
for a game to grow with any extension, and to feel that the waiting and the longing for it are rewarding.)
Instead of giving us more of the same, I truely wish you will rock our world and put some real heart (and not only art) into this soul of that game.
"

Disappointing.


I am disappointed in this response. The heart and soul of the game is fine. It has been explained what this expansion was originally constructed to do. After that situation changed, the company could have swallowed all of that work and expense or they could have offered it to people who feel as I do and not as you do. I like more variety in occasional expansions without more mechanics and another layer of complexity. They added to the game with the first expansion and will do the same, if warranted, in a next expansion. It is OK not to feel like you want this expansion but to question its heart and soul and calling it a sellout as uncalled for and...well...disappointing.
 
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Ryan Brown
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rickert wrote:

I am disappointed in this response. The heart and soul of the game is fine. It has been explained what this expansion was originally constructed to do. After that situation changed, the company could have swallowed all of that work and expense or they could have offered it to people who feel as I do and not as you do. I like more variety in occasional expansions without more mechanics and another layer of complexity. They added to the game with the first expansion and will do the same, if warranted, in a next expansion. It is OK not to feel like you want this expansion but to question its heart and soul and calling it a sellout as uncalled for and...well...disappointing.


Sorry for disappointing you, Rick.
I appreciate your honest response.
I do agree that it is fine to remain the game the same,
But when fans are waiting so much for expansion -
How surprised are you from their reaction?
Can you really blame them for smelling the money instead of recognizing the soul, if the expansion include more of the same?
Sure, we are talking about a specific game and it doesn't need
to change its DNA, but for me the meaning of expansion is to add more value into the game. It doesn't have to include game-changer rules, but it does
have to justify the waiting, and to reward the fans for their loyalty,
And in this case, for example, not to make cards with the same ability and/or effects but with different painting.

 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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rangostarr wrote:
rickert wrote:

I am disappointed in this response. The heart and soul of the game is fine. It has been explained what this expansion was originally constructed to do. After that situation changed, the company could have swallowed all of that work and expense or they could have offered it to people who feel as I do and not as you do. I like more variety in occasional expansions without more mechanics and another layer of complexity. They added to the game with the first expansion and will do the same, if warranted, in a next expansion. It is OK not to feel like you want this expansion but to question its heart and soul and calling it a sellout as uncalled for and...well...disappointing.


Sorry for disappointing you, Rick.
I appreciate your honest response.
I do agree that it is fine to remain the game the same,
But when fans are waiting so much for expansion -
How surprised are you from their reaction?
Can you really blame them for smelling the money instead of recognizing the soul, if the expansion include more of the same?
Sure, we are talking about a specific game and it doesn't need
to change its DNA, but for me the meaning of expansion is to add more value into the game. It doesn't have to include game-changer rules, but it does
have to justify the waiting, and to reward the fans for their loyalty,
And in this case, for example, not to make cards with the same ability and/or effects but with different painting.



Not sure what you mean about the waiting. It hasn't been that long since the game was expanded the first time. I think the fact that the company was very much up front about people look at the expansion also makes me feel and heart and soul of this game is fine despite your assertions to the contrary.
 
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ryan brown
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rickert wrote:

Not sure what you mean about the waiting. It hasn't been that long since the game was expanded the first time. I think the fact that the company was very much up front about people look at the expansion also makes me feel and heart and soul of this game is fine despite your assertions to the contrary.


Does the duration of the waiting (which by each gamer's passion for the game is already different) - is actually matter here?
Or is it the principle of creating an extension for the fans whom like to see something totally unique in the new product and not more of the same?

 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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rangostarr2 wrote:
rickert wrote:

Not sure what you mean about the waiting. It hasn't been that long since the game was expanded the first time. I think the fact that the company was very much up front about people look at the expansion also makes me feel and heart and soul of this game is fine despite your assertions to the contrary.


Does the duration of the waiting (which by each gamer's passion for the game is already different) - is actually matter here?
Or is it the principle of creating an extension for the fans whom like to see something totally unique in the new product and not more of the same?



You decide. You brought up the wait. I thought it was negligible.
 
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ryan brown
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rickert wrote:

You decide. You brought up the wait. I thought it was negligible.


Yeah well.. I didn't brought up the waiting as a technical procedure
But as an emotional one.
 
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