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Subject: Poll - who and which clan won the game rss

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Cori Chan
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As quite a few people concerned about the balancing about Rising Sun, that some of the players start early in the game would have more turn than others, which is:
4/5players game 1st player got 1 more action
6players game, 1st, 2nd & 3rd players got 1 more actaion 4th,5th &6th

Hope this poll can show the answer
who and which clan won the game
  1st player 2nd player 3rd player 4th player 5th player 6th player KOI LOTUS SUN BONSAI DRAGONFLY FOX TURTLE MOON
3players game
4players game
5players game
6players game
      168 answers
Poll created by cori226
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Josh P.
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You should add the Fox clan to this poll especially because people, without having played the game yet, are speculating that it could be too powerful.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Crab Clan, also Crane Cran, but others too, really. Everything seems to be quite balanced in Rokugan, after all.

Oh. We're talking about the other, toy game. Then no idea :).
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Cori Chan
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have added fox, and correct the clan order.
sorry that reset the poll though
 
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Casey Smith
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whnmusicsover wrote:
You should add the Fox clan to this poll especially because people, without having played the game yet, are speculating that it could be too powerful.


I think the best counter strategy against Fox is just take their one Bushi hostage. Youll steal a VP and get a coin at the start of your next turn.
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Peter Dorsett
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SwissQueso wrote:
whnmusicsover wrote:
You should add the Fox clan to this poll especially because people, without having played the game yet, are speculating that it could be too powerful.


I think the best counter strategy against Fox is just take their one Bushi hostage. Youll steal a VP and get a coin at the start of your next turn.


This happened continuously in our first game, but Fox took some bonus ronin each war phase type cards and still managed to win. They also kept other factions poorer as they needed to split their reparations with Fox. People didn't really betray Fox as they knew the figures would return anyway. Finally Fox never summoned bushie as they knew they'd get them for free, so they pretty much ruled the shrines with Shinto the whole game. Did seem OP, especially on a first play. Of course a little early for me to say though. Fox plus ronin = powerful.
 
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Casey Smith
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I never considered the Ronin.

I can't imagine them not having a strong counter play, I think we just haven't figured it out yet.
 
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Zach Rothwell
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peteyandycreek wrote:
SwissQueso wrote:
whnmusicsover wrote:
You should add the Fox clan to this poll especially because people, without having played the game yet, are speculating that it could be too powerful.


I think the best counter strategy against Fox is just take their one Bushi hostage. Youll steal a VP and get a coin at the start of your next turn.


This happened continuously in our first game, but Fox took some bonus ronin each war phase type cards and still managed to win. They also kept other factions poorer as they needed to split their reparations with Fox. People didn't really betray Fox as they knew the figures would return anyway. Finally Fox never summoned bushie as they knew they'd get them for free, so they pretty much ruled the shrines with Shinto the whole game. Did seem OP, especially on a first play. Of course a little early for me to say though. Fox plus ronin = powerful.


I'm no too familiar with the rules, but it seems to me that if a player ignores the map for all the time except for war, try to capitalize on their lack of presence by harvesting a lot or trying to get stuff from area control (not sure about the specifics). You could also buy all those monsters that start battles by killing, converting, or moving a single enemy because that would counter their many, single bushi.

The thing that really scares me is way of the ninja. That + 4-6 summons during the war phase would be terrifying.
 
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Mr. Octavius
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tod22 wrote:
The thing that really scares me is way of the ninja. That + 4-6 summons during the war phase would be terrifying.


I believe Way of the Ninja is "Each time you summon", not for each figured summoned. For example, you only get to kill 1 figure after a recruit mandate regardless of how many strongholds you have. So the Fox Clan ability sounds like a single summon 'event', however many bushi they put on the board in however many provinces, the only get to kill 1 figure.
 
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Casey Smith
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Maebon wrote:
tod22 wrote:
The thing that really scares me is way of the ninja. That + 4-6 summons during the war phase would be terrifying.


I believe Way of the Ninja is "Each time you summon", not for each figured summoned. For example, you only get to kill 1 figure after a recruit mandate regardless of how many strongholds you have. So the Fox Clan ability sounds like a single summon 'event', however many bushi they put on the board in however many provinces, the only get to kill 1 figure.


This is from the kickstarter page


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/rising-su...

One incredibly dangerous strategy is to allow Fox to get their hands on Path of the Ninja and the Path of the Sword Upgrades. Path of the Ninja states anytime you Summon, you may kill 1 Bushi anywhere on the map... and you might be doing a lot of summoning with Fox. Imagine you really want a province that just so happens to be the last spot to be fought over... You'll have four battles, and thus potentially four chances to summon, before that fight happens... With Path of the Ninja that's four Bushi killed, before the conflict even happens (Hint: this is a good bargaining tool... you know, killing/not killing their guys!). Path of Sword states whenever you summon, you can summon an extra Bushi to a Stronghold- ok, so you're probably going to be lax on Bushi, but being able to plop one extra down on one of your Strongholds means if you have extra planning you can begin to amass an army where none was previously- Wit and Cunning and all that!

Not going to lie, that seems really powerful.
 
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Henry Clark
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SwissQueso wrote:
Maebon wrote:
tod22 wrote:
The thing that really scares me is way of the ninja. That + 4-6 summons during the war phase would be terrifying.


I believe Way of the Ninja is "Each time you summon", not for each figured summoned. For example, you only get to kill 1 figure after a recruit mandate regardless of how many strongholds you have. So the Fox Clan ability sounds like a single summon 'event', however many bushi they put on the board in however many provinces, the only get to kill 1 figure.


This is from the kickstarter page


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/rising-su...

One incredibly dangerous strategy is to allow Fox to get their hands on Path of the Ninja and the Path of the Sword Upgrades. Path of the Ninja states anytime you Summon, you may kill 1 Bushi anywhere on the map... and you might be doing a lot of summoning with Fox. Imagine you really want a province that just so happens to be the last spot to be fought over... You'll have four battles, and thus potentially four chances to summon, before that fight happens... With Path of the Ninja that's four Bushi killed, before the conflict even happens (Hint: this is a good bargaining tool... you know, killing/not killing their guys!). Path of Sword states whenever you summon, you can summon an extra Bushi to a Stronghold- ok, so you're probably going to be lax on Bushi, but being able to plop one extra down on one of your Strongholds means if you have extra planning you can begin to amass an army where none was previously- Wit and Cunning and all that!

Not going to lie, that seems really powerful.


I think that was based on the old power though which summoned a Bushi at the start of every battle where you had no force. Now you just summon them all at the start of the war phase so it’s just one instance of summoning. This and other combos is probably why the ability changed.

Their ability does seem strong, but as it only works 3 times per game and is entirely dependent on having Bushi available I wonder if it’s stronger than some of the other abilities (using Coin for Ronin, buying everything cheap, free map movement, choosing any political mandate, etc).

To be fair though, there are a lot of variables that effect the strength of each clan relative to each other - not just the number of players, but the Kami involved and the season card set you are using etc...
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Michael R

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FearLord wrote:

I think that was based on the old power though which summoned a Bushi at the start of every battle where you had no force. Now you just summon them all at the start of the war phase so it’s just one instance of summoning. This and other combos is probably why the ability changed.


Actually, the new power does not say "summon" anymore. The Fox clan now only gets to "place" their Bushi in the beginning of the war phase.
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Henry Clark
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tricil wrote:
FearLord wrote:

I think that was based on the old power though which summoned a Bushi at the start of every battle where you had no force. Now you just summon them all at the start of the war phase so it’s just one instance of summoning. This and other combos is probably why the ability changed.


Actually, the new power does not say "summon" anymore. The Fox clan now only gets to "place" their Bushi in the beginning of the war phase.


Ah! There we are - so no summon effects at all. Not so over powering then.
 
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Zach Rothwell
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FearLord wrote:
tricil wrote:
FearLord wrote:

I think that was based on the old power though which summoned a Bushi at the start of every battle where you had no force. Now you just summon them all at the start of the war phase so it’s just one instance of summoning. This and other combos is probably why the ability changed.


Actually, the new power does not say "summon" anymore. The Fox clan now only gets to "place" their Bushi in the beginning of the war phase.


Ah! There we are - so no summon effects at all. Not so over powering then.


Oh thank god. I don't have to hate draft them (can I even do that now).
 
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PK Levine
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Four-player game tonight: Turtle, Dragonfly, Fox, Bonsai. Very VERY close game except for Dragonfly player who isn't much of a gamer -- 57 vs 57 vs 55 vs 30. Turtle just barely won above Bonsai due to honor, and Fox (me) was right behind.
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Henry Clark
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pkitty wrote:
Four-player game tonight: Turtle, Dragonfly, Fox, Bonsai. Very VERY close game except for Dragonfly player who isn't much of a gamer -- 57 vs 57 vs 55 vs 30. Turtle just barely won above Bonsai due to honor, and Fox (me) was right behind.


Sounds good! I’ve been think of writing down some initial thoughts about each clan and how their ability can be used to best effect. The interesting thing about this game to me is that there are clearly some cards and other elements that may or may not be in a game that can really change your focus depending on what clan you are.

For example, Koi get a lot of benefit from getting Ronin tokens, and this feeds into their strength in the War phase, but to me it seems 100% correct to always take Coins if there is a choice of the 2 - they are effectively the same thing in the War phase to them, but can be used throughout the Political phase for other effects (Season cards, strongholds, etc).

The Kami Raijin (Place a Bushi anywhere on the map) would be great for say the Moon Clan (place a 2 strength Bushi anywhere on the map) but a waste of resources for the Fox Clan (as it reduces the Bushi you have available for your ability later).

I think an article that goes into some of these subtleties and maybe talks about the priorities for each clan could be quite interesting!
 
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Jack Brown
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We played a six player game today with the five base game clans plus fox clan. Turtle player won with 64 points and Koi player (that's me!) Was close(ish) second on 58. We both scored over half of our points from war tokens, finishing up in the 5-6 different tokens bonus. He just edged out the victory by making smarter alliance choices in the tea phase: Koi in spring, Lotus in summer and Autumn, so he ended up with the most actions all up.

Lotus player ended up on 45, Fox on forty something, fourth place though. Both gained few points from war tokens, and instead gained points from in game effects such as seppuku and imperial poets.

Bonsai and Dragonfly players ended up in high twenties/early thirties. Dragonfly player isn't much of a gamer, and bonsai player had his heart set on acquiring as many monsters as possible.

Fox ability seems strong definitely, but they all seem pretty balanced to me. Fox ability creates excellent opportunities for sure, but with little board presence throughout the season it's hard to make use of the harvest and gain enough funds to leverage a small presence in each region, or even gain Ronin tokens. Maybe that can all change with whatever season set is used, and fewer players also, but at six players, each region was consistently very busy.

For reference, we used the archway season set, we shuffled up the extra monsters from KS exclusives and also the retail expansion and used two per season, and the kami we used were... Vp per stonghold guy, free bushi summon guy, two coins guy,and two movement guy, sorry I can't remember their names.

Anyway, I hope at least someone finds this useful/interesting!
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Phil Schmidt
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I've played 2.66 games.

The two games were won by Fox clan and Dragonfly; played by the same player. It wasn't really the clan powers as much as his effective maneuvering and complete focus on winning key battles, so he got the 30 point bonus each game. The third game it looked as if Turtle clan would win, but then the hosts wife and kids got home so we had to switch games. We have learned that it is incredibly useful to have a couple ronin tokens each war, and getting those is worth prioritizing because they enable to you win any battles; not just ones where you start with the most force.

All of the clans seem good except for Yellow, which no one has been able to make work. Most likely we haven't been playing them correctly, but at the moment they are a clear worst in my games. Saving money has been underwhelming because it often ends up that you often only save 3-4 coins, but everyone else starts with that many coins more than you do, so it's hardly a 'power'. And if you focus too much on buying stuff, then you have no money come the war phase and don't win much. It seems winning war is FAR more lucrative than buying cards.

Pink seems to have the best ability, but your starting stronghold is in a spot that connects to only 1 other place, so it's hard to leverage it early in the game. Having to deal with such inflexible placement is annoying.

I speculate red may be the strongest, but the ability has a really high skill floor because you have to plan and mind game a lot to get the most out of it.

Green is probably the easiest to use, and they ended up being a lot better than I thought they would be. If turtle gets to top honor they are a harvest machine because of that extra force and presence. The KS turtle strongholds look amazing.

Dragonfly is just good all around, though they don't get much out from marshal actions. Fox seems good; though their ability means they don't get much from recruit actions.
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Zach Rothwell
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skies wrote:


All of the clans seem good except for Yellow, which no one has been able to make work.


In my first game, yellow won. I think it was a little through luck (their was Ryujin and form of the beast), but I still think they're pretty strong.
 
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Casey Smith
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tod202 wrote:
skies wrote:


All of the clans seem good except for Yellow, which no one has been able to make work.


In my first game, yellow won. I think it was a little through luck (their was Ryujin and form of the beast), but I still think they're pretty strong.


Im of the opinion that Yellow really needs to prioritise collecting coins if they want to have a chance. They also start with lower honor, so I think they have a bit of a chance to extort coins from other players by using Onis and Betray.
 
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Zach Rothwell
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SwissQueso wrote:
tod202 wrote:
skies wrote:


All of the clans seem good except for Yellow, which no one has been able to make work.


In my first game, yellow won. I think it was a little through luck (their was Ryujin and form of the beast), but I still think they're pretty strong.


Im of the opinion that Yellow really needs to prioritise collecting coins if they want to have a chance. They also start with lower honor, so I think they have a bit of a chance to extort coins from other players by using Onis and Betray.


I agree, but only in the war phase. Yellow bought way of the shogun and also tried to insert itself in battles between other players and take the reparations
 
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Jack Brown
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I think Bonsai clan's strongest play would be a stronghold rush in the first season. Due to the low starting honour, they will always be last in turn order, so if you convince your Ally to take a marshal action by promising to follow up with a harvest, you can then take another marshal and have three strongholds in the first season. One coin for a stronghold is no joke.

The problem is this strategy works exactly once before nobody wants to ally with you anymore. The alternative is to ally with one of the higher income clans and convince them to double marshal.

I feel if Bonsai clan doesn't get to marshal at least once in the first season, they'll fall a bit behind.

This is purely speculation after exactly one playthrough, which clearly makes me an expert.
 
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Zach Rothwell
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DeluxeClam wrote:
I think Bonsai clan's strongest play would be a stronghold rush in the first season.


I think allying with turtles would be pretty beneficial for Bonsai. You both would want to build strongholds (at least, by your strategy).
 
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Julian St. Pierre
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Any way to vote for mulitple games?
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Bone White
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This poll will be skewed a lot because certain clans will be played more than others. If we don't know how often a clan was played, then the # or % of victories doesn't really mean anything.
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