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Subject: the Vagabond, Allies, Defense, and Retreat rss

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Ethan Furman
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Ethan Furman wrote:
So the Vagabond cannot use Allies if attacked? And the Vagabond cannot retreat if attacked?

Cole Wehrle wrote:
Correct. And he cannot retreat as the concept of retreating before combat is gone.

Ethan Furman wrote:
So what happens when somebody pounds the Vagabond into the ground?

Patrick Leder wrote:
If they end their turn in the woods they heal completely. You can just slip into the woods at the start of the turn. As the Ranger you can do it during the turn.

I haven't had the chance to play the game yet, but consider the following scenario:

Vagabond just had a (possibly foolish) turn, and at the end has no attack nor defense left. The Marquise is one clearing over with plenty of warriors to play havoc with the Vagabond, and does - she moves troops into the clearing with the Vagabond and proceeds to attack him until all his items are damaged.

Two things seem odd about this:
- Once the Vagabonds items are all damaged, the Marquise can do nothing further to him (can't kill him, can't jail him, can't send him scurrying into the forest, nothing).
- The Vagabond can't do anything throughout that entire process to help himself, not even running away.

If I were in the Vagabond's shoes at the beginning of that turn I would have fled (retreated), probably at the cost of same damaged items while I ran away.

I don't know if such a scenario simply cannot happen, but if it can it seems completely unthematic that the Vagabond can do nothing about it, and that the Marquise cannot kill the Vagabond once he is defenseless.

The other thing that seems really weird: if the Vagabond was Allies with the Eyrie, and there were Eyrie Warriors in that clearing, the Vagabond could not use them to fight back against the Marquise.

Assuming the above scenarios can happen I think they illustrate two things:
- the Vagabond needs to be able to retreat (at some cost)
- the Vagabond should be able to use Allied Warriors for defense (with the possible exception of the other Vagabond already using them, or the Ally itself attacking him)

Finally, this is a war game -- even though it may only be rarely used, not being able to Retreat also seems odd.
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Cole Wehrle
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Players can still "retreat" they just can't retreat before battle. If a Vagabond is worried about the Marquise, they should use their movement to get out of cat clearings before the hammer falls.

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Ethan Furman
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In my example above the Vagabond was not "in" a cat clearing, but next to it. And even so, people make mistakes, or betrayals (perhaps the Vagabond was allies with the Marquise, and the Marquise was tired of it).

More importantly, it sounds like the above (first) scenario can happen?
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Jefferson Freitas
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I think the Vagabond Role plays as a wayward hero, like Robin Hood. It doesn't matter how much he is beaten, the hero will always come back after his Dark Night of the Soul
(in fact, every faction seems to have a way to come back, even if there are no more warriors nor buildings left)

However, after said beating, the vagabond is left with nothing but damaged items and will be basically required to retreat to a forest and spend his whole turn doing nothing. Then the night comes and all his items are repaired.
Losing his turn looks like a good penalty gamewise.
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Fabian
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Kouhan wrote:
I think the Vagabond Role plays as a wayward hero, like Robin Hood. It doesn't matter how much he is beaten, the hero will always come back after his Dark Night of the Soul
(in fact, every faction seems to have a way to come back, even if there are no more warriors nor buildings left)

However, after said beating, the vagabond is left with nothing but damaged items and will be basically required to retreat to a forest and spend his whole turn doing nothing. Then the night comes and all his items are repaired.
Losing his turn looks like a good penalty gamewise.


I wouldn't consider the Vagabond to be a Robin Hood figure. Sure, he'd like you to think that. But that sneaky little raccoon is actually a weapon's merchant, and he's selling to all sides.

There should be consequences for getting caught out doing this!
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Henry Thompson
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I mean, if the Marquise chooses to do that, all she does is use a ton of actions to make sure the Vagabond loses his entire next turn. No VP:s gained. That's a huge cost when at least one other faction is also breathing down her neck.
AND, the turn after that, the Vagabond returns with all items repaired and no trust left for the Marquise.

I think picking on the Vagabond like that is going to be saved for whenever he's in the lead, hostile to you, or sabotaging you by abusing the ally system. In all cases, he has it coming.

But I don't actually know. Will have to see how this version plays out.
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Raithyn
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Zlarp wrote:
I wouldn't consider the Vagabond to be a Robin Hood figure.


Typical feline propaganda. Go back to your suburb and leave the forest to it's rightful inhabitants!
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Fabian
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raithyn wrote:
Zlarp wrote:
I wouldn't consider the Vagabond to be a Robin Hood figure.


Typical feline propaganda. Go back to your suburb and leave the forest to it's rightful inhabitants!


You guys would all be nothing without our industry. While you only want to tear things down, we're actually building something, you ungrateful little vermin!
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Anjovi Kulam
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What if boots could be exhausted to 'dodge' attacks?
Having allied troops suddenly attack you could be nasty, but what if you could save up boots and impede your temporary movement to get out of sticky situations like this? (at least enough to mitigate damage)

You could refresh your items to make a getaway on your turn.

Might add a bit more theme to this aspect of the game, kind of bring out the idea that the vagabond is cunning enough to get out of these sorts of jams, if they plan for it.

Although, perhaps the sheer amount of items that a vagabond will be able to accumulate in any given game could be enough to mitigate damage taken in this fashion.
 
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Eric C
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There have to be ways to interact with and attack a luck-pushing Vagabond, and the game mechanics shouldn't provide for player elimination.

The situation you're describing sounds like one where the Vagabond player foolishly overstretched during his or her turn and then got punished for it by essentially losing a turn to repair his or her items. Isn't that the kind of interaction that we want?
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Anjovi Kulam
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Might just be the case. Perhaps one of the vagabond variants might have an ability to explore and play around with this dynamic.

Although, I suppose the ranger already does in a way (hit and run into the trees)
 
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Ethan Furman
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Daravon wrote:
There have to be ways to interact with and attack a luck-pushing Vagabond, and the game mechanics shouldn't provide for player elimination.

The situation you're describing sounds like one where the Vagabond player foolishly overstretched during his or her turn and then got punished for it by essentially losing a turn to repair his or her items. Isn't that the kind of interaction that we want?

It is. I was just having trouble with having the Vagabond completely worn down, and then having the attacker unable to do anything more, and the Vagabond being unable to flee.

But I suppose it could be politics -- killing the Vagabond outright would cause a massive rebellion/crushing backlash/whatever, so all the attacker can really do is complete humiliation. Ah, politics!
 
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Henry Thompson
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Maybe he's so worn down that the enemy doesn't even recognize him as a living creature. Poor guy.

If we try to apply more logic to his situation, I wonder what difference it would make for the gameplay if the Vagabond has to flee into an adjacent forest the moment all his items are damaged. Then, once it's his turn, he'll cross a path and slip into another forest space, then stay there for full repairs. Between his repairs and re-entering the game, he'd be able to move quite some distance, and get more options for a strategic return.

It could also make it more obvious to other players that there's no point in attacking the Vagabond (since you can't attack him in a forest space anyway)
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Ethan Furman
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Hank Pants wrote:
I wonder what difference it would make for the gameplay if the Vagabond has to flee into an adjacent forest the moment all his items are damaged. Then, once it's his turn, he'll cross a path and slip into another forest space, then stay there for full repairs. Between his repairs and re-entering the game, he'd be able to move quite some distance, and get more options for a strategic return.


Ooh, I like that idea! Puts a little bit of risk on the attacker, too -- two warriors, Vagabond has two items left... an attack might take out only one item, or might take both and allow the Vagabond to slip away...
 
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Henry Thompson
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stoneleaf wrote:
Hank Pants wrote:
I wonder what difference it would make for the gameplay if the Vagabond has to flee into an adjacent forest the moment all his items are damaged. Then, once it's his turn, he'll cross a path and slip into another forest space, then stay there for full repairs. Between his repairs and re-entering the game, he'd be able to move quite some distance, and get more options for a strategic return.


Ooh, I like that idea! Puts a little bit of risk on the attacker, too -- two warriors, Vagabond has two items left... an attack might take out only one item, or might take both and allow the Vagabond to slip away...

Oh, you're right, it does make a difference there! Hmm, I'm no game designer, but it feels like every little concept like this sets off a wave of other changes... Difficult stuff
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Henry Thompson
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Thought some more about the "forced retreat", and realized that a rule like that has more effects than I thought. Non-ranger Vagabonds getting themselves hurt to sneak into the forest during their own daylight and cheesing the Day's Rest effect, for instance.
You could add rules to circumvent this, but the purpose of it all isn't worth all the extra rules.

When all his items are damaged, I'm just gonna tip the Vagabond meeple over to signal to the other players that he's currently feigning death to avoid further damage.
 
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Ethan Furman
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Hank Pants wrote:
Thought some more about the "forced retreat", and realized that a rule like that has more effects than I thought. Non-ranger Vagabonds getting themselves hurt to sneak into the forest during their own daylight and cheesing the Day's Rest effect, for instance.

The forced retreat only happens on other players' turns (when they are attacking the Vagabond), not when the Vagabond is taking his own turn.

Hank Pants wrote:
When all his items are damaged, I'm just gonna tip the Vagabond meeple over to signal to the other players that he's currently feigning death to avoid further damage.

Also a good idea.
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