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Subject: Trash multiple obsolete plants, draw "step 3", which lowest plant gets trashed? rss

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Jonas K
Denmark
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It's a two player game, phase 4 of turn N.

The market is 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and the top of the power plant deck is the step 3 card. Plants 03 through 11 are either owned by the players or in the trash.

Alice and Bob both have 11 houses. Alice doesn't build, then Bob builds 3 houses.

By the end of phase 5 (of turn N), which plants will have been trashed? In particular, when they draw the step 3 card, do they trash the lowest-numbered plant straight away, or only at the end of phase 4?

I can see one reasonable sequences of events:

Bob builds house 12
Plant 12 is trashed (12 houses)
Step 3 card is revealed
Plant 13 is trashed (step 3 card)
Bob builds house 13
Bob builds house 14
Plant 14 is trashed (14 houses)

I can see another reasonable sequences of events:

Bob builds house 12
Plant 12 is trashed (12 houses)
Step 3 card is revealed
Bob builds house 13
Plant 13 is trashed (13 houses)
Bob builds house 14
Plant 14 is trashed (14 houses)
Plant 15 is trashed (step 3 card)

I lean towards the first sequence of events being correct, but I note that whether you trash the lowest numbered power plant immediately or at the end of the phase then depends on whether you draw the step 3 card in phase 2 or 4.

My justification for going for the first one is that the rules for drawing step 3 in phase 2 explicitly say "[proceed as usual, then only when stuff's done, trash the smallest plant]", whereas the rules for drawing step 3 in phase 4 doesn't say that anything should be delayed. "If you mention delays in only one place, it only applies to that one place" seems like a reasonable heuristic, somewhat similar to Expressio Unius Est Exclusio Alterius.

Do people agree, disagree or know of some third reasonable sequence of events?
 
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Alex Drazen
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Plants trashed by the build rule should be trashed immediately.

Power Grid rules wrote:

Quote:
If, at any time during the game, there is a power plant in the actual market with a number equal to or lower than the number of cities any player has, players immediately remove it from the game and replace it with a new card from the draw stack. This rule does not affect power plants owned by players


Because houses are actually built iteratively, even though one conventionally calculates everything and pays a lump sum, the "any time" means each plant is trashed in succession as someone reaches that number. You don't wait to do them all at once and certainly not until the end of Phase 4 -- note that, on the turn when Step 2 starts, the "remove lowest plant" step is separate from any plants trashed during the Building phase.

This also solves the "trash a bunch of stuff and see a step 3 card in a pile of cards." It's similar to the answer I got in the other thread about how to handle Benelux bureaucracy -- doing things one at a time means you'll always get the reshuffle handled correctly.

That should be the Power Grid motto, one thing (or elektro) at a time!
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CAR first
Germany
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Rule specification:
Step 2 starts in Phase 5 (the lowest power plant is trashed and replaced), if in Phase 4 enough houses were built.

Step 3 card can be drawn in Phase 2, 4 or 5
Phase 2: The card lays until Phase 3, then starts the Step 3 routine.
(3routine = trashed with the lowest power plant and deck is reshuffled- Actual market are 6 power plants)
Phase 4 or 5: the routine starts immediately if Step 3 is drawn.
Step 3 starts at the next Phase.

If Step 3 card is drawn, before Step 2, then the Step 2 routine starts immediately. (In this case it's nonrelevant)


I clearly go with the first sequence.
But after trashing the Plant 13, the deck has to be reshuffled!
then Plant 14 is trashed and replaced.

 
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Harald Torvatn
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jonaskoelker wrote:
It's a two player game, phase 4 of turn N.

The market is 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and the top of the power plant deck is the step 3 card. Plants 03 through 11 are either owned by the players or in the trash.

Alice and Bob both have 11 houses. Alice doesn't build, then Bob builds 3 houses.

By the end of phase 5 (of turn N), which plants will have been trashed? In particular, when they draw the step 3 card, do they trash the lowest-numbered plant straight away, or only at the end of phase 4?

I can see one reasonable sequences of events:

Bob builds house 12
Plant 12 is trashed (12 houses)
Step 3 card is revealed
Plant 13 is trashed (step 3 card)
Bob builds house 13
Bob builds house 14
Plant 14 is trashed (14 houses)

I can see another reasonable sequences of events:

Bob builds house 12
Plant 12 is trashed (12 houses)
Step 3 card is revealed
Bob builds house 13
Plant 13 is trashed (13 houses)
Bob builds house 14
Plant 14 is trashed (14 houses)
Plant 15 is trashed (step 3 card)

I lean towards the first sequence of events being correct, but I note that whether you trash the lowest numbered power plant immediately or at the end of the phase then depends on whether you draw the step 3 card in phase 2 or 4.

My justification for going for the first one is that the rules for drawing step 3 in phase 2 explicitly say "[proceed as usual, then only when stuff's done, trash the smallest plant]", whereas the rules for drawing step 3 in phase 4 doesn't say that anything should be delayed. "If you mention delays in only one place, it only applies to that one place" seems like a reasonable heuristic, somewhat similar to Expressio Unius Est Exclusio Alterius.

Do people agree, disagree or know of some third reasonable sequence of events?


It is the last sequence.

Step 3 does not start until after the phase in which it is triggered, so it starts after everybody has finished building. Plants trashed due to number of houses buildt are trashed immediately.

So during building, plant 12-14 is trashed. After building, step 3 starts and plant 15 is trashed for being the lowest.
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CAR first
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Harald wrote:


It is the last sequence.

Step 3 does not start until after the phase in which it is triggered, so it starts after everybody has finished building. Plants trashed due to number of houses buildt are trashed immediately.

So during building, plant 12-14 is trashed. After building, step 3 starts and plant 15 is trashed for being the lowest.

Didn't you read the rules?snore

Here are the german rules, which I translated above:

Quote:
Wenn die Karte »Stufe 3« vom Nachzugstapel gezogen wird, beginnt »Stufe 3« in der folgenden Phase! Es gibt die folgenden 3 Möglichkeiten:

1. Wird die Karte »Stufe 3« in Phase 2 (Kraftwerk kaufen) gezogen, kommt die Karte »Stufe 3« als höchstes Kraftwerk in den zukünftigen Markt und wird innerhalb dieser Phase auch als höchstes Kraftwerk behandelt. Der Nachzugstapel mit den restlichen Kraftwerken wird nun sofort gemischt und wieder verdeckt bereit gelegt. Die Versteigerung der Kraftwerke wird fortgesetzt und nach Bedarf neue Kraftwerke nachgezogen, bis jeder Spieler entweder ein neues Kraftwerk erhalten oder gepasst hat. Nachdem die Phase 2 beendet wurde, wird die Karte »Stufe 3« zusammen mit dem niedrigsten Kraftwerk im Kraftwerkmarkt aus dem Spiel genommen und dafür kein Ersatz gezogen! »Stufe 3« beginnt in Phase 3.

2. Wenn die Karte »Stufe 3« in Phase 4 (Bauen) durch Aussortieren eines Kraftwerks mit zu niedriger Nummer ins Spiel kommt, wird die Karte »Stufe 3« sofort zusammen mit dem niedrigsten Kraftwerk im Kraftwerksmarkt aus dem Spiel genommen und dafür kein Ersatz gezogen. Der Nachzugstapel mit den restlichen Kraftwerken wird erneut gemischt und wieder bereit gelegt. »Stufe 3« beginnt in Phase 5.

3. Wenn die Karte »Stufe 3« in Phase 5 (Bürokratie) als neues Kraftwerk gezogen wurde, wird die Karte »Stufe 3« zusammen mit dem niedrigsten Kraftwerk im Kraftwerksmarkt aus dem Spiel genommen und dafür kein Ersatz gezogen. Der Nachzugstapel mit den restlichen Kraftwerken wird erneut gemischt und wieder bereit gelegt. Die Rohsto e werden noch nach Stufe 2 nachgefüllt. »Stufe 3« beginnt in Phase 1 der neuen Runde.


If you don't believe me, try google translator
 
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Chris
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Power Plants should have been replaced during the build phase.

Summary: During a Step 3 power plant auction, there are only 6 cards (instead of 8), and you should have access to any of the 6 power plants (there is no future market).

----

Rules Pg 5. If, at any time during the game, there is a power plant in the actual market with a number equal to or lower than the number of cities any player has, players immediately remove it from the game and replace it with a new card from the draw stack. This rule does not affect power plants owned by players.

Example: A player adds a city and now has 6 cities in his network. If the power plant numbered 06 is still in the actual power plant market, he removes it from the game, but the players keep their power plants numbered 03 to 05.


When Bob built 3 houses, power plant # numbers within the market needed to be checked and removed.
* Build houses one at a time
* Remove plants one at a time following the rules each time
* Do not just remove 3 cards at once (cannot follow the rules that way)


Rules Pg 6. 2. If the [Step 3] card is drawn in phase 4 (Building) for replacements of too small power plants, remove this card and the smallest numbered power plant from the game and do not draw replacements. Shuffle the draw stack with the remaining power plants and place it face down next to the game board. Step 3 starts in phase 5.


Note: the wording of that rule can cause issues in your example, robot
so I'll try help shine light on this....meeple

You should have 8 plants, current (4) and future market (4)
> Build house
> Remove #12, and Step 3 card appears
> At this point you remove Step 3 and plant #13 (do not draw replacements)
(you are left with 6 plants)
> Build house
> Build house (Bob's 14th house)
> Remove plant #14
& Draw a replacement power plant so that you always have 6
(unless the step 3 plants deck is empty, there is no replacement)
> Phase 2 - Step 3 Auction, players have access to 6 power plants to choose from.

Hope that helps arrrh
 
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Marky Mark
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mrmer1in wrote:

> Build house
> Remove #12, and Step 3 card appears
> At this point you remove Step 3 and plant #13 (do not draw replacements)
(you are left with 6 plants)
> Build house
> Build house (Bob's 14th house)
> Remove plant #14
& Draw a replacement power plant so that you always have 6
(unless the step 3 plants deck is empty, there is no replacement)
> Phase 2 - Step 3 Auction, players have access to 6 power plants to choose from.

Hope that helps arrrh


Agree with the first 3 steps, but technically after you remove the step 3 card and #12, you immediately shuffle the draw deck with the remaining power plants and place them face down until phase 5, such that #14 (or any other plants) are no longer in the market to be removed (although this is largely semantics, for as soon as they are drawn into the market, they will be removed from the game)
 
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