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Subject: Does Susanoo unbound block Shinto from climbing? rss

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Oden Dee
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Does Susanoo Kami (from Unbound) block Shinto from climbing the mountain?

When you only have one Stronghold with Susanoo there, it is kind of harsh to not be able to climb mountain.

I played it that the Shinto is blocked, but I think I may have been wrong. Move and climb are different wording. Perhaps it should not be blocked.
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Could you post pictures of the rules and cards of the Kami Unbound?
 
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Casey Smith
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Warlock00 wrote:
Does Susanoo Kami (from Unbound) block Shinto from climbing the mountain?

When you only have one Stronghold with Susanoo there, it is kind of harsh to not be able to climb mountain.

I played it that the Shinto is blocked, but I think I may have been wrong. Move and climb are different wording. Perhaps it should not be blocked.


You are correct, and thats part of the strategy of using him.
 
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Casey Smith
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LordBartholomeus wrote:
Could you post pictures of the rules and cards of the Kami Unbound?


https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1880526/kami-unbound-change...

Halfway down the thread.
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Z
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For reference, the rule reads:

"All figure's in Susanoo's Province are unable to Move out of it under any circumstance. It doesn't matter what Clan they belong to or what ability they may have. Only Kami figures are able to ignore Susanoo's hold."

I would say that since the Shinto is technically leaving the Province when they go to worship that Susanoo would prevent that from happening. It says 'under any circumstance' so I would interpret that as literally anything that involves moving a piece out of the Province unless by death. Once you're there, you're stuck.

I could be completely wrong though. I'm sure CMON will release a FAQ at some point.
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SwissQueso wrote:
LordBartholomeus wrote:
Could you post pictures of the rules and cards of the Kami Unbound?


https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1880526/kami-unbound-change...

Halfway down the thread.


Cheers!
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Casey Smith
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Estoyldian wrote:
For reference, the rule reads:

"All figure's in Susanoo's Province are unable to Move out of it under any circumstance. It doesn't matter what Clan they belong to or what ability they may have. Only Kami figures are able to ignore Susanoo's hold."

I would say that since the Shinto is technically leaving the Province when they go to worship that Susanoo would prevent that from happening. It says 'under any circumstance' so I would interpret that as literally anything that involves moving a piece out of the Province unless by death. Once you're there, you're stuck.

I could be completely wrong though. I'm sure CMON will release a FAQ at some point.


You have to declare which Stronghold the Shinto are coming from, so if its from the stronghold in the Providence of the Susanoo, its SOL.
 
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SwissQueso wrote:
Estoyldian wrote:
For reference, the rule reads:

"All figure's in Susanoo's Province are unable to Move out of it under any circumstance. It doesn't matter what Clan they belong to or what ability they may have. Only Kami figures are able to ignore Susanoo's hold."

I would say that since the Shinto is technically leaving the Province when they go to worship that Susanoo would prevent that from happening. It says 'under any circumstance' so I would interpret that as literally anything that involves moving a piece out of the Province unless by death. Once you're there, you're stuck.

I could be completely wrong though. I'm sure CMON will release a FAQ at some point.


You have to declare which Stronghold the Shinto are coming from, so if its from the stronghold in the Providence of the Susanoo, its SOL.


Exactly. That's why I said 'moving for any reason' i.e from the Province to the Kami shrine. I think this is the correct interpretation.
 
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Sean
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I disagree. When the rules refer to "Move" they always do so with a capitalized "M." The rulebook uses capitalized words in this way when they are using a term with a specific meaning defined elsewhere in the rules. A "Move" is defined as what figures do during the Marshal Mandate and the Fujin Kami ability. Adding a shinto to a shrine, however, is not a "Move," it is a "Worship," which takes place during the Recruit Mandate.

I believe that if Susanoo's ability were meant to block Worship, it would be written on the card that the figures were unable to leave a province, rather than "Move out of it."

Likewise, I think the Oni of Plagues from the Monster Pack ("Players with higher Honor than you cannot Move figures into this province.") does not prevent players with higher honor from Summoning figures to its province, because a "Summon" is not a "Move."
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Mr. Octavius
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omninom wrote:
I disagree. When the rules refer to "Move" they always do so with a capitalized "M." The rulebook uses capitalized words in this way when they are using a term with a specific meaning defined elsewhere in the rules. A "Move" is defined as what figures do during the Marshal Mandate and the Fujin Kami ability. Adding a shinto to a shrine, however, is not a "Move," it is a "Worship," which takes place during the Recruit Mandate.

I believe that if Susanoo's ability were meant to block Worship, it would be written on the card that the figures were unable to leave a province, rather than "Move out of it."

Likewise, I think the Oni of Plagues from the Monster Pack ("Players with higher Honor than you cannot Move figures into this province.") does not prevent players with higher honor from Summoning figures to its province, because a "Summon" is not a "Move."


That is an interesting point. For example, I doubt the Earth Dragon ("At the start of Battle, you may Move 1 figure from each other player out of this Province") can 'Move' a shinto in the province to a temple.
 
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Casey Smith
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The Kami rules state that you can’t move out of the province under any circumstance, except other Kami. That seems pretty clear to me.

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3940336/kpishnery
 
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Niall Smyth
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I don’t think so. Moving is different from ascending into the mountains. It’s a part of Summmoning, not movement.
 
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Casey Smith
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poshniallo wrote:
I don’t think so. Moving is different from ascending into the mountains. It’s a part of Summmoning, not movement.


There is two parts to the summon though, you have to pick the stronghold where it is created. Then it ‘climbs’. If you choose a stronghold with Susanoo, it’s stuck, because it clearly states under any circumstance it can’t leave, unless it’s Kami.
 
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Casey Smith
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Just to be clear, the Kami are gods and I would expect them to have pretty strong powers that you can’t get around normally.
 
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Niall Smyth
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SwissQueso wrote:
poshniallo wrote:
I don’t think so. Moving is different from ascending into the mountains. It’s a part of Summmoning, not movement.


There is two parts to the summon though, you have to pick the stronghold where it is created. Then it ‘climbs’. If you choose a stronghold with Susanoo, it’s stuck, because it clearly states under any circumstance it can’t leave, unless it’s Kami.


But the Shinto doesn’t enter the province, they immediately go on the Kami card.

You’re better off trying to think about balance and likely intention of the designer than verisimilitude. We can argue about mountain vs mountains (the actual phrasing), and talk about the definition and number of mountains (山) in Japan until our tits fall off, but I don’t think it would be helpful.

I simply think it would be unbalanced, wouldn’t fit their rules phraseology, and they would have said clearly on Susanoo, if they intended it to block Shinto worship.

 
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poshniallo wrote:

But the Shinto doesn’t enter the province, they immediately go on the Kami card.


When Summoned, Shinto are first placed into the Province and then sent to the Shrine if you choose to use them to worship. They absolutely enter the Province before leaving.

Quote from p.14 of rulebook:

Quote:
If they choose to do so, the Shinto is immediately
taken from the Province where it was Summoned
and placed on any of the 4 Shrine tiles on the top of the board.


Further, in the example on the same page:

Quote:
The player decides to Summon a Bushi and a Shinto in the
Kyushu Strongholds, a Shinto in the Nagato Stronghold, and for the Bonus, they Summon the Yurei Monster they had in reserve to Nagato. They then decide to send the Nagato Shinto to worship Hachiman in his Shrine.
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Sean
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SwissQueso wrote:
poshniallo wrote:
I don’t think so. Moving is different from ascending into the mountains. It’s a part of Summmoning, not movement.


There is two parts to the summon though, you have to pick the stronghold where it is created. Then it ‘climbs’. If you choose a stronghold with Susanoo, it’s stuck, because it clearly states under any circumstance it can’t leave, unless it’s Kami.


You are half right. There are two parts to a Recruit Mandate: a Summon, and a Worship. Neither of these are a Move. I recognize that Move seems like it should describe any figure changing locations, but that is not the case. A Move is only triggered by the Marshal Mandate, the Fujin shrine, and some season cards.
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Chris Eastwood
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poshniallo wrote:
But the Shinto doesn’t enter the province, they immediately go on the Kami card.

Not according to page 14 of the rulebook. You summon a Shinto to a province first, then you may send them to the mountains.

I personally believe that it is not allowed due to the wording "under any circumstance". Someone brought up that if this were intended then they should have just said that figures can't leave. I am guessing they went with "move" rather than "leave" because it isn't clear if dying, being taken hostage, or being betrayed are considered "leaving". Of course this is just my interpretation, and we should probably just wait for a designer to answer.
 
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Niall Smyth
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Well now you are all making me change my mind. I hate that. Stop it!
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Sean
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SwissQueso wrote:
The Kami rules state that you can’t move out of the province under any circumstance, except other Kami. That seems pretty clear to me.

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3940336/kpishnery


Notice that it says "can't Move out" and not "can't leave." The major difference there is the definition of the word "Move." The capitalized word indicates that the game is using a strict definition for what is considered a "Move."

The "under any circumstances" part of the rule means that any "Move" is subject to the same restriction, even Kami shrines or season cards such as Earth Dragon, etc.
 
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Sean
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Beastwood5 wrote:
poshniallo wrote:
But the Shinto doesn’t enter the province, they immediately go on the Kami card.

Not according to page 14 of the rulebook. You summon a Shinto to a province first, then you may send them to the mountains.

I personally believe that it is not allowed due to the wording "under any circumstance". Someone brought up that if this were intended then they should have just said that figures can't leave. I am guessing they went with "move" rather than "leave" because it isn't clear if dying, being taken hostage, or being betrayed are considered "leaving". Of course this is just my interpretation, and we should probably just wait for a designer to answer.


Good point about "leave" being problematic as well. I still think the fact that "Move" is capitalized is the key indication that it's a strict definition, though.
 
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Casey Smith
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omninom wrote:
SwissQueso wrote:
The Kami rules state that you can’t move out of the province under any circumstance, except other Kami. That seems pretty clear to me.

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3940336/kpishnery


Notice that it says "can't Move out" and not "can't leave." The major difference there is the definition of the word "Move." The capitalized word indicates that the game is using a strict definition for what is considered a "Move."

The "under any circumstances" part of the rule means that any "Move" is subject to the same restriction, even Kami shrines or season cards such as Earth Dragon, etc.


It also says it doesn’t matter what ability it uses, it can’t leave at all, unless it’s Kami.
 
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marco cenni
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imho for the rulesbook Move is only: "This means either crossing a Border or taking a Shipping Route to Move to an adjacent Province." [cit. pag. 15]

Worship is not a Move
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Sean
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SwissQueso wrote:
omninom wrote:
SwissQueso wrote:
The Kami rules state that you can’t move out of the province under any circumstance, except other Kami. That seems pretty clear to me.

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3940336/kpishnery


Notice that it says "can't Move out" and not "can't leave." The major difference there is the definition of the word "Move." The capitalized word indicates that the game is using a strict definition for what is considered a "Move."

The "under any circumstances" part of the rule means that any "Move" is subject to the same restriction, even Kami shrines or season cards such as Earth Dragon, etc.


It also says it doesn’t matter what ability it uses, it can’t leave at all, unless it’s Kami.


Almost. It says figures are unable to Move out of province, no matter what clan or ability they use. Therefore, season card abilities like the Earth Dragon's cannot be applied. But, since Worship is distinct from Move, shinto can still Summon to the area, then Worship at a shrine. That does not violate the text of the Susanoo ability, which only disallows using Move to exit the province.
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Casey Smith
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I’ll quote the rule book again “It doesn’t matter what Clan they belong to or what ability they use”

By your guys definition, Dragonfly clan could still be summoned somewhere else cause it’s not technically a move. I would consider Worship an ability.

Unless I see an official statement, I’m going to have to disagree with you guys.
 
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