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Subject: I mean... Do we REALLY need all this stuff?! rss

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Jeff Knapp
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I got my copy last weekend but just haven't had the level of confidence (or perhaps the desire for masochism...) to start punching out and organizing all the parts of this game...

Well last night I finally started punching out boards, and after getting about 6 or so in, I found myself asking, "How could we possibly need all this stuff?"

I mean, several of the game boards are present 3 or 4 times, with only the artwork being slightly different - AND they're 2-sided... Is there a map in the scenario that uses all 4 of a particularly-shaped board?

And the enemies - I mean, I appreciate the unique artwork, but I kinda feel like 30%-50% of them are just that - extra artwork. I mean, if the guard action cards get shared across multiple types of guards, why couldn't there have just been one type of guard...? I kinda feel like this is one game that's been dumped in a box 2 times, and now other companies are capitalizing on the idea by selling us sheets of laser-cut wood for ~$100 bucks...

Don't get me wrong - I'm not pooping on it. I just have to wonder if this game could be half the pieces, half the price, half the size, and still be just as good...?

Hoping to play it this weekend - hopefully that'll wash away my doubts. I might need a few days just to build some sort of storage solution, though. I mean, right now I'm looking at all these bags of parts and my brain keeps saying, "Hey the Xbox has an 'on' button..."

*Shrug*
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David Christopher
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You know how we gamers are...we always want MOAR!!!

I think for KS backers, what a value at $99 for what you get. I love the amount of content, it's what keeps it from getting stale.
 
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Christopher Wionzek
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ViperMan wrote:
I mean, several of the game boards are present 3 or 4 times, with only the artwork being slightly different - AND they're 2-sided... Is there a map in the scenario that uses all 4 of a particularly-shaped board?


I think like...scenario 2 or 3 actually uses 4 of the same board. I think it's 3 offhand, I don't have the book in front of me.

If you think having lots of different standees is gross excess, you're lucky you don't play games with minis. I had a tackle box the size of the Gloomhaven box just to carry around my Descent miniatures. The tiles took up another two separate boxes.
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Swampy Crocker
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There are actually scenarios that use all 4 of some of the board letters, so that is justified.
Different guards have different stat cards, so even though they have the same action cards, some guards have retaliate or shield or such.

Isaac put a lot more into the design than I think any of us initially realized, and it definitely can look excessive. As you get further into the game you will be grateful for all of it.
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Robert Marney
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I think Gloomhaven could have been designed with fewer map tiles and standees - perhaps by adding a set of pure black "wall" hexes to block off unused hexes? - but the ridiculous variety in enemies and scenarios is a massive contributor to replayability.

2nd edition cut a lot of the tiny bits that weren't really useful (except the 5 gold coins, those are still useless), and replaced them with something much better: the red numbered/lettered tokens, which are huge time savers for scenarios with finicky rules.
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Jay Johnson
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you're right, they could have gotten rid of the art altogether and just had plain geometric hex drawings and colored hex tiles indicating the type of terrain.

and they could have just had 4-5 different colors of tokens, with each color representing an enemy type, and a corresponding list of stats.

sounds really exciting.....
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Michael Russell
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Yes. More please.
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Kip Kwiatkowski
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JayJ79 wrote:
you're right, they could have gotten rid of the art altogether and just had plain geometric hex drawings and colored hex tiles indicating the type of terrain.

and they could have just had 4-5 different colors of tokens, with each color representing an enemy type, and a corresponding list of stats.

sounds really exciting.....


Best game ever.

Emperor's New Clothes
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Des T.
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If you want less moving parts, take a look around the apps being offered here. I won't endorse one over the other, but you can extremely reduce the amount of clutter by outsourcing a part of the game handling to a phone, tablet, tv or laptop.
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Dillon Flaherty
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The map tiles are probably one area that I would agree could have probably been cut down - but it really does add quite a bit of map variety potential that becomes apparent after playing 10+ scenarios. Given how tactical the entire experience of Gloomhaven is, it's very much a nice-to-have!
 
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Brian Wright
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I especially like the monster variety. That's one thing that gets stale super quick in most dungeon crawlers.
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Stuart Wexler
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Robyrt wrote:


. . .

2nd edition cut a lot of the tiny bits that weren't really useful (except the 5 gold coins, those are still useless), and replaced them with something much better: the red numbered/lettered tokens, which are huge time savers for scenarios with finicky rules.


Out of curiosity, what are those red numbers/letters tokens for? I just unboxed and sorted my copy but haven't played yet. They are called "scenario aid tokens" but I have no actual idea how or when they would be used.
 
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Jay Johnson
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jomolungma wrote:
Out of curiosity, what are those red numbers/letters tokens for? I just unboxed and sorted my copy but haven't played yet. They are called "scenario aid tokens" but I have no actual idea how or when they would be used.


One such use is to indicate spots on the map board where certain plot points are triggered.
For instance, when door A is opened, you read the text from the scenario book from section A. so you put the red A token on the door to remind you.

or to mark a series of spots where a particular figure will move to or towards under certain conditions.
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N F
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Well, most campaign dungeon crawls come with 7-12 quests and have about 1/4 of the box weight. Gloomhaven comes with close to 100 quests. I would think that the number of tiles and monsters would have to grow with the number of quests or it would get rather repetitive.

PS- This is a joke question, right? The amount of stuff and the size of the game is half the charm. I'm sure it's a big reason why the game is #1. Issac didn't skimp on design, variety, content, or anything! That is why it's an amazing game. He could have easily chopped this up into about 5 expansions and made the total thing about $350-400 bucks.
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patrick mullen
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For the most part yes. A big part of the variety of scenarios comes from different kinds of monsters interacting in different kinds of layouts. While you only have one ai card for the guards, you may have all 3 types of guard in the same scenario, and each guard has different stats so you need to be able to identify them on the grid. The same is true of the tile layouts - yes, you will use all 4 of those identical tiles at times, or we wouldn't have gotten 4 copies. There are a lot of overlay tiles, but again, different scenarios use different combinations of those tiles to different tactical effect. Yes, it sometimes matters that some of the traps are stun traps, some are damage traps, and there is a vines tile that is difficult terrain.

It doesn't ALWAYS matter for a given scenario, but what enables to game to sustain the amount of content that is included are all of the different pieces it comes with and how they can be put together.

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