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Subject: starting production values of corporations rss

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mercy fate
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okay, i’m confused about something.

some people elsewhere said that the advanced corporations like Ecoline and others, that have starting production listed on their cards, have that production “added” to the basic +1 to each production that we normally start with.

my main example i’m gonna use is the Ecoline corporation but this would apply to any corporations that have starting production values.


I always read ecoline as saying “you start with 2 plant production”

while others seem to be interpreting that as “you start with 2 (EXTRA) plant production”

meaning thst the ecoline player would start with the 3 in plant production and 1 in the others.

but the card doesn’t say “extra”. it merely states what you “start with”, which would imply that their “2” replaces the standard “1”.

I was interpreting it such that they would start with 2 INSTEAD of the normal 1, which actually only gives them 1 extra over the others.

but I’ll admit that I dunno which way is the actual intended way by the creators.

in the setup, it says in phase 3 to give everyone 1 in their production

and then in phase 4, they pick their corporations and apply any new production values on those cards.

so
is it

1) everyone starts with 1 on each production , then when they pick corporations they add whatever production bonuses to it, which would mean that the ecoline player would start 1 plant from the standard setup and then add 2 more?

or

2) everyone starts with 1 and then the player that draws ecoline replaces their plant production value with the value printed on the card, which means they would start with 2?

i mean, i suppose i could weigh the normal mode vs the corporate era

if we went by interpretation #2, then

in corporate era, nobody starts with any production and ecoline starts with 2 which makes ecoline more powerful, because now ecoline is starting with 2 more plant production than everyone else.
while in the standard game, everyone starts with 1 while ecoline still only starts with 2, which only gives them a headstart of 1 as opposed to 2 in the corporate era. . .

so would interpretation #1 be the correct way to play, wherebe ecoline starts with 3 in the standard game?
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Bill Buchanan
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There are essentially two official ways to play the base game of Terraforming Mars:

1) You don't play with the Corporate Era cards, and all players start with production in each resource set at 1.

2) You play with the Corporate Era cards, and all player start with production in each resource set at 0.

In both cases you would add any production from your corporation cards in addition to whatever your starting production is.

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Michael Taylor
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From the rulebook:

When referring to the base game which gives you one production:

Quote:
Project deck: Make sure you have no Corporate Era cards in the project deck or among the corporation cards. ese are marked with a red and white icon in the lower left edge. Shuffle the project cards and place the project deck next to the board. Leave space for a discard pile beside it.


On the page using the CE cards:

Quote:
Players start with no extra production of resources (see Setup - Players on page 7). Corporate Era can be combined with any of the other game variants.


So on Corporate Era you start with 0 and then add whatever your corporation has, even if your corporation doesn't have the CE icon.
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mercy fate
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yeah, okay. it looks like I got my answers.

must to clarify, my question was not about whether or not to add the corporate era cards into the deck.

it was about the corporations and the starting production values.

because ecoline says “you start with 2 plant production “ and helion says “you start with 3 heat production”


now, if i was playing the corporate era variant, everyone would start with 0 and then apply their corporations, so the ecoline player would start with 2 plant, while helion starts with 3 heat.


but in the standard variant, everyone starts with 1, so i was questioning whether or not ecoline and helion’s starting values “replace” that starting amount or if they were “added” to that starting amount.

it looks like the first reply suggests that it does, in fact get added to the starting values, so that helion starts with 4 and ecoline starts with 3.


I suppose if i interpreted the intent for ecoline to start 2 points ahead on plants and for helion to begin 3 points ahead on heat, then i could apply that consistently?
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Örjan Almén
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Treat your corporation card as you play it as any card, But before first action phase.
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Bill Buchanan
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mercyfate wrote:
yeah, okay. it looks like I got my answers.

must to clarify, my question was not about whether or not to add the corporate era cards into the deck.

it was about the corporations and the starting production values.



For my answer to your question to make sense to other readers it had to be put that way.

mercyfate wrote:


because ecoline says “you start with 2 plant production “ and helion says “you start with 3 heat production”

now, if i was playing the corporate era variant, everyone would start with 0 and then apply their corporations, so the ecoline player would start with 2 plant, while helion starts with 3 heat.

but in the standard variant, everyone starts with 1, so i was questioning whether or not ecoline and helion’s starting values “replace” that starting amount or if they were “added” to that starting amount.



In my opinion, that should be a good indication of which way the designers meant you to be playing.

In other words, I see no reason why anyone shouldn't always play with the corporate era cards (and starting production of 0 in all resources), beyond maybe your first "learning game" or two.
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Richard Young
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mercyfate wrote:
now, if i was playing the corporate era variant, everyone would start with 0 and then apply their corporations, so the ecoline player would start with 2 plant, while helion starts with 3 heat.
Yup, that's correct.

mercyfate wrote:

but in the standard variant, everyone starts with 1, so i was questioning whether or not ecoline and helion’s starting values “replace” that starting amount or if they were “added” to that starting amount.

it looks like the first reply suggests that it does, in fact get added to the starting values, so that helion starts with 4 and ecoline starts with 3.
Yup, also correct.

mercyfate wrote:

I suppose if i interpreted the intent for ecoline to start 2 points ahead on plants and for helion to begin 3 points ahead on heat, then i could apply that consistently?
Looks like you've already done that.

Now, those are the official options for how to treat start positions but there are others you see used from time to time. The core rules assume that that using Beginner Corp is like a "first time out thing" where you get a jump start on everything with production across the line and getting your ten initial cards for free.

We, for a while, gave that some latitude allowing a player to choose to use a Beginner Corp rather than participate in the Corps selection process (random draw or bidding) and his starting position was basic while everyone else used the CE rules. That can be quite competitive, actually, depending on how good those ten initial cards are (and the production bumps are huge too), so some of our group chose to continue with Beginner Corps into their second, maybe third game. Currently, everyone is comfortable with the full CE version so it is now merely academic.
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RyuSora
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YOU ADD THAT VALUE!
Playing normal game, witout corporation era
ecoline starts with 1 in all, AND PLUS 2 IN PLANTS, SO 3 IN PLANTS!

With corporation era
ecoline starts with 0 in all, AND PLUS 2 IN PLANTS, SO 2 IN PLANTS!
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Matthias Juchmes
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Bubslug wrote:
Now, those are the official options for how to treat start positions but there are others you see used from time to time. The core rules assume that that using Beginner Corp is like a "first time out thing" where you get a jump start on everything with production across the line and getting your ten initial cards for free.

We, for a while, gave that some latitude allowing a player to choose to use a Beginner Corp rather than participate in the Corps selection process (random draw or bidding) and his starting position was basic while everyone else used the CE rules. That can be quite competitive, actually, depending on how good those ten initial cards are (and the production bumps are huge too), so some of our group chose to continue with Beginner Corps into their second, maybe third game. Currently, everyone is comfortable with the full CE version so it is now merely academic.


The jump start with 1 on each production is not tied to the Beginner Corporations, but depends on whether you play with the Corporation Era cards (the cards with the red arrow in the bottom left) or not. The Corporation Era cards are more focused on engine building, so no need to jump start production.

And it's in the official rules that Beginner Corporations can be used along with the normal ones. I always give the option for new players to choose Beginner, but I don't think it should be used by eperienced players.

Also, this and the OP's question are clarified in the official FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

- Setup: Choose your starting cards at the same time as you choose your corporation card (Choosing a Beginner corporation must be done before seeing the cards though).

- Variants:
The standard game variant does not use the Corporate Era cards [CE]and the players start with 1 production of each resource, plus what the chosen corporation gives.
The Corporate Era (CE) variant adds all [CE] corporations and project cards to the game, and players start with 0 production of each resource, plus what the chosen corporation gives.
Beginner Corporations are not a game variant; they may be used by new players in any game variant (standard or CE) in place of choosing corporation from 2 and starting hand from 10.
Draft may be used together with any game variant (standard or CE). You do not draft the starting 10 cards, and draft is not used in solo play.
Solo play always uses the CE variant, so the CE cards are added to the game, and you start with 0 production, plus what the chosen corporation gives you. When playing solo, you don’t use the Beginner Corporations or draft.
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Marc Espie
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Bubslug wrote:

We, for a while, gave that some latitude allowing a player to choose to use a Beginner Corp rather than participate in the Corps selection process (random draw or bidding) and his starting position was basic while everyone else used the CE rules. That can be quite competitive, actually, depending on how good those ten initial cards are (and the production bumps are huge too), so some of our group chose to continue with Beginner Corps into their second, maybe third game. Currently, everyone is comfortable with the full CE version so it is now merely academic.


In most games, beginner corps have a huge advantage over advanced corps.

You start with 42 credits + 10 cards, that's 72 credits.

More than the starting credits of any corporation.

Unless you're really unlucky and do not have playable cards, a first turn with a beginner corps often starts with a 30 or more cost project, which boosts the player immensely.

Usually, you'll end your first turn with 25Mcredits income, at least, which is a huge boost compared to the other players starting with 20.


I did that evaluation mistake during one of my first plays. I wanted to play with corporations, but we had beginners, so I gave everyone the choice of two corporations and the beginner corporation.

I ended up taking the beginner corporation and rolling over the other players, including advanced players who did not take the beginner corp.
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Bill Buchanan
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maxyoupi wrote:
Bubslug wrote:

We, for a while, gave that some latitude allowing a player to choose to use a Beginner Corp rather than participate in the Corps selection process (random draw or bidding) and his starting position was basic while everyone else used the CE rules. That can be quite competitive, actually, depending on how good those ten initial cards are (and the production bumps are huge too), so some of our group chose to continue with Beginner Corps into their second, maybe third game. Currently, everyone is comfortable with the full CE version so it is now merely academic.


In most games, beginner corps have a huge advantage over advanced corps.

You start with 42 credits + 10 cards, that's 72 credits.

More than the starting credits of any corporation.

Unless you're really unlucky and do not have playable cards, a first turn with a beginner corps often starts with a 30 or more cost project, which boosts the player immensely.

Usually, you'll end your first turn with 25Mcredits income, at least, which is a huge boost compared to the other players starting with 20.


I did that evaluation mistake during one of my first plays. I wanted to play with corporations, but we had beginners, so I gave everyone the choice of two corporations and the beginner corporation.

I ended up taking the beginner corporation and rolling over the other players, including advanced players who did not take the beginner corp.


In theory they'd have an advantage at the beginning, but as the game continues that gap would close as everyone with the ability of a non-beginner corporation would have effects kicking in throughout the game.

Maybe your just that good?
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Sonny A.
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maxyoupi wrote:

In most games, beginner corps have a huge advantage over advanced corps.

You start with 42 credits + 10 cards, that's 72 credits.

More than the starting credits of any corporation.

Unless you're really unlucky and do not have playable cards, a first turn with a beginner corps often starts with a 30 or more cost project, which boosts the player immensely.


You'll also have tied up some of that 72 M€ in cards that you're not able to play the first 4-8 generations. So you can't really do the calculation like that.

Even if you can play a card in generation 1, some of them are probably just VP cards that doesn't build engine. You really don't want to tie up resources in that.
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T Z
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maxyoupi wrote:
Bubslug wrote:

We, for a while, gave that some latitude allowing a player to choose to use a Beginner Corp rather than participate in the Corps selection process (random draw or bidding) and his starting position was basic while everyone else used the CE rules. That can be quite competitive, actually, depending on how good those ten initial cards are (and the production bumps are huge too), so some of our group chose to continue with Beginner Corps into their second, maybe third game. Currently, everyone is comfortable with the full CE version so it is now merely academic.


In most games, beginner corps have a huge advantage over advanced corps.

You start with 42 credits + 10 cards, that's 72 credits.

More than the starting credits of any corporation.

Unless you're really unlucky and do not have playable cards, a first turn with a beginner corps often starts with a 30 or more cost project, which boosts the player immensely.

Usually, you'll end your first turn with 25Mcredits income, at least, which is a huge boost compared to the other players starting with 20.


I did that evaluation mistake during one of my first plays. I wanted to play with corporations, but we had beginners, so I gave everyone the choice of two corporations and the beginner corporation.

I ended up taking the beginner corporation and rolling over the other players, including advanced players who did not take the beginner corp.

You really shouldn't make that assumption based on just one game. As with every corporation, luck is a significant factor in how good your starting strategy is, and this is amplified with beginner corps since it's pure chance whether your starting hand has good synergy or not. Most of the time though only half of the cards you get will actually be useful or playable.
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Tony Thomas
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I've taught the game to several new players and I usually give them the option to play a beginner corporation, with all of it s benefits.
Invariably, they jump to an early lead, put as they are unfamiliar with the cards, they usually fail to produce as efficient an engine as the more experienced player, and by the end of the game are no longer in the lead.

I don't think I've ever seen someone win a multiplayer game using a beginner corporation.
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Richard Young
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Scoutdad wrote:
I've taught the game to several new players and I usually give them the option to play a beginner corporation, with all of it s benefits.
Invariably, they jump to an early lead, put as they are unfamiliar with the cards, they usually fail to produce as efficient an engine as the more experienced player, and by the end of the game are no longer in the lead.

I don't think I've ever seen someone win a multiplayer game using a beginner corporation.
It's possible, and we've seen it, but it is bound to be rare, particularly with an experienced group. The early jump start rarely stands up by mid to end game. We played that if you decide to go with a Beginner Corp, you didn't participate in the draw for Standard/CE Corps. If the option was to look at the Corps you drew and if they were both crap, you could then go with a Beginner Corp instead? That might be a slightly better option but I still don't think it is going to be a winner (maybe you improve your potential standing to second last instead of last?). Anyway, we just ignore the Beginner Corps anymore...
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mercy fate
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yeah my understanding of the thematics is that in the "standard game", it is assumed that the corporations have already gotten started and built their engines over multiple generations before the game even started , kind of like character backstories. and the they just balance it by giving everyone a +1 in everything.

while the "corporate era" mode has everyone play through those "backstory generations", starting with nothing and then building specialized engines to better fit their playstyle.


again, i appreciate the help, it's nice to see an non-toxic online community
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Bubslug wrote:
[q="Scoutdad"]If the option was to look at the Corps you drew and if they were both crap, you could then go with a Beginner Corp instead? That might be a slightly better option


I just wanted to say that this was a quick house rule I added in an effort to make my spouse less frustrated with drawing two companies that don't synergize with their opening hand.

Essentially, each player is dealt 1 beginner corporation and 2 randoms.

If someone thinks every card in their hand is pure awesomeness, they don't have to give any of them up. If someone gets dealt Inventrix and UNMI, maybe they would rather have Beginner?

My spouse constantly has the perception that they are "drawing worse", so eventually we just started using the rule that you just pick whichever company you want in an effort to reduce "corporation screw".

My spouse also hates drafting, even though theoretically it should reduce downside risk in the later turns. The turns when my spouse gets 2 good cards, my spouse doesn't want to have to give up either one.

It's not sufficient compensation that if I get two good cards and they get no good cards, that they can steal one of my good cards and we both have one good one each. Sigh.
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Raiddinn wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
[q="Scoutdad"]If the option was to look at the Corps you drew and if they were both crap, you could then go with a Beginner Corp instead? That might be a slightly better option


I just wanted to say that this was a quick house rule I added in an effort to make my spouse less frustrated with drawing two companies that don't synergize with their opening hand.

Essentially, each player is dealt 1 beginner corporation and 2 randoms.

If someone thinks every card in their hand is pure awesomeness, they don't have to give any of them up. If someone gets dealt Inventrix and UNMI, maybe they would rather have Beginner?

My spouse constantly has the perception that they are "drawing worse", so eventually we just started using the rule that you just pick whichever company you want in an effort to reduce "corporation screw".

My spouse also hates drafting, even though theoretically it should reduce downside risk in the later turns. The turns when my spouse gets 2 good cards, my spouse doesn't want to have to give up either one.

It's not sufficient compensation that if I get two good cards and they get no good cards, that they can steal one of my good cards and we both have one good one each. Sigh.

Allowing a beginner corp is a good solution to getting bad cards and corporations at the start, but it could be overpowered when getting a lot of good cards.

I have proposed a one-step draft process: keep 2, and pass 2 one time. To me this sounds like a good compromise (you can keep two good cards if you get them) and it also would be faster than the 3-2-1 draft. I also think it sounds good for generation 1: keep 5, pass 5 once. So far nobody has taken me up on it though, in part because we usually don't draft at all.
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I had the same question in our game tonight. Glad I found the answer...
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Sean Grabowski
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bwridge wrote:
I had the same question in our game tonight. Glad I found the answer...


And we're glad you looked to see if the question had already been asked before you posted a new thread about it!
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