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Subject: Time Markers: Double-Side Tiles vs. Single Hourglasses rss

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Bill Buchanan
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From SethJaffee on KS Comment Section:

Quote:
It's great to see all the comments and suggestions!

For those who are thinking that the double-sided hourglass tiles are more elegant than the wooden single-hourglass tokens... I highly suspect this is one of those things (and it happens every kickstarter) where people are hesitant about a change, but then once they see it in person, they have no question.

There's a thread or two on BGG about the hourglass component, and in it I said this:
"Everything about just using single hourglasses and putting 2 in the same box is just easier."

In the original version, you have to first "remove all singles", then "flip all doubles". The new edition would be simply "remove one from each space". So I wouldn't say that the old way is more elegant.

The dual layered player boards and the hourglass tokens were designed in tandem by Adam to work well together. I'm certain that you'll find the wooden hourglasses preferable to the tiles, and that removing 1 from each space is just as easy, if not easier, then removing some and flipping others!


Curious as to the general consensus on this?
 
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Derry Salewski
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Makes perfect sense.
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Bill Buchanan
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My own personal opinion is that I don't see much difference between removing an hourglass from each space, or removing a tile from each single time space and flipping doubles. He words it likes it's different, but it really isn't.

I think where the single hourglasses would possibly seem to have a drawback with the greater likelihood of players "accidentally" putting the tokens in the same box as another single hourglass. Can't really make that mistake with tiles that fill the whole box ...

Another possible minor issue is the aesthetics of have tiles in some boxes and single hourglass tokens in other boxes. I'd think tiles of uniform size would look better, at least to me.

I really wish, they'd take the time to get a prototype or two of their deluxe vision made before the start of the campaign. It'd probably save them a lot of grief, and as they've obviously have had the design set for quite some time now it wouldn't seem that much of a stretch to have that in place.

In the end, is there a big difference between double-side tiles or single hourglasses? What do I know, but probably not ...


As an aside, I wonder how tightly the tiles and hourglasses will fit in the recessed player boards?
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Larry Rice
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I think it does make the wording more simple and straightforward. I certainly don't have any issues with it.
 
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Sherman Oaks
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I'm neutral on the hourglass meeples. I don't think they'll necessarily be an improvement or detriment. That said I'm sure screen printing 60 custom shaped meeples is quite costly for what is likely a lateral move.

For example if they said we've hit our budget, we can't afford to deluxify the action tiles unless we axe something. I would suggest that the hourglass meeples be the first thing to go. That or the training cost meeples (because the uniform rectangular tiles of the original allowed them to slide much more easily when prices changed).

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Emperor Penguin
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When I originally saw the single hourglasses I had an immediate reaction of disappointment. I felt it would be more fiddly reaching across the table to return them to the supply if you didn't have to. More bits just feel more fiddly.

But after thinking on it more I realized that was silly. Heck I'd probably just have a supply by each person since they will just need them again next round. So given that I think it is equal to the chits for fiddlyness, and as he said it does make the rules streamlined.
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Darren
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I trust that TMG has tried this out in their test plays when they made this decision. I understand why they are doing it and think it makes sense. If they didn't have the dual layer player boards to help hold things in place it might be a bigger issue but that isn't the case. I'm ok with it.
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Ken B
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Wooden hourglasses that fit one or two within a space on the time track is certainly more "elegant", IMO. But having to fiddle with more bits is not. It's not a big deal, but personally I would have preferred a double-sided wood token just like the cardboard version. Not as cool as an hourglass-shaped one, but likely it would make the play experience just a bit smoother. But I don't care much either way.

I'm more concerned about the single-sided silk screening of all the tokens, especially if they end up doing silk screening of the action tokens that so many are asking for. Am I wrong, or does that not mean that during initial setup, we would have to constantly be flipping about half of the tokens over to the side that has the silk screening?
 
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Brian McCarty
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Similar thoughts as Bill.
It makes the decline rules a bit simpler, but you have to add a rule saying you can't combine two single hourglasses (except when you initially take > 2, two of those taken can be in the same slot)

Not a big deal.
Brian
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Bob D
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It is neither a degradation nor an improvement. It’s just different. But when “deluxifying” a game with considerably fewer components than Orleans or Yokohama, you likely do whatever you can.
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Scott Nelson
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Sliding them together won't be as easy.
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Lior A
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Single is definitely worse.

He words it like the double sided is a two steps process, but it isn't. You can do the same as he describes with the Single, go by space by space, remove ones and flip twos...

Besides the Two sided being more elegant and conviennent, you can, during a turn, easily see with a glance how many you have of each, which is important. With the Single sided it is harder to distinguish this, thus hindering gameplay.
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Scott Seifert
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It's replacing a one-time rules annoyance (if such a simple rule can really be called an annoyance) with a constant gameplay annoyance of handling twice as many bits, making sure you don't bump bits together, and the added awkwardness of sliding individual hourglasses left at the end of each round.
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Big Tom Casual
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For what it’s worth, the hour glass meeples are hecka cute.
 
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François Lambert
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I have played this game a dozen times. I definitely prefer the original version of Hourglasses (double-side).
I find it more elegant and I have the impression that there is less risk of error and confusion. The game is not improved on this point.
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Jeff Lozito
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It strikes me as a bit of a lateral move in terms of gameplay and rules ...

I don't agree with the side of the argument I've heard that the single hour glass tokens are more fiddly (or less elegant) compared the double-sided tokens ... With single tokens you are technically moving more pieces; but we're seasoned gamers, and used to moving bits around, so it can't be that physically taxing.

I also don't buy the other side of the argument that it makes the rules explanation that much easier. Granted in a literal sense, it is easier to say 'remove a single token from each spot' than it is to say 'remove all single tiles, then flip all double tiles'. But again, we're seasoned gamers, used to all sorts of weird rules, and neither of those explanations above are that hard to grok.

Where I do like them is from a physical / tactile perspective. There's something about having wooden bits, metal coins, and other such things in a game that just takes it to the next level for me. So in that respect, it's a big step up for me.
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Chris Ruf
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I think it causes there to be another exception in the rules to have tokens instead of double sided tiles. With the tiles, you can simply say no space can hold more than a single tile. Both the double hourglass and single are both one tile.

With the tokens however, you have to specify that each space can hold a maximum of 1 action tile OR two hourglass tokens. Since there are some actions that give 3 hourglasses, you have to specify the 2 limit or else people might think you can stack 3 in one spot. This wasn't a problem in the original version.
 
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Scott Nelson
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I have to retract my sliding problem. There should only be one hourglass meeple in each box by the time you slide them. That won't be a problem afterall. One per box is pretty easy to figure out.
 
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Darren
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Due to the dual layered player boards, I don't think you can slide the hourglasses or tiles over as each "box" has ticks above and below that ensure they stay put if bumped.

Stating that you've played the game x amount of times and that the single tiles are better without trying the single hourglasses system doesn't hold water. It is an opinion, which you are free to have, but until you try it, its all hypothetical. Maybe when it arrives it turns out to be true. Maybe it doesn't and the single hourglasses rock. Time will tell.

We are gamers, we have handled far more fiddly stuff then this.
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Dirk Meijlof
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I don't care
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Bill Buchanan
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I think one of the more interesting observations is that in that on the Kickstarter campaign page there is a chart listing side-by-side the components for the standard edition and the Deluxe Edition (both being produced by TMG for the kickstarter).

This chart says 60 Punchboard Hourglass Tokens for the Standard, and 60 Wood Hourglass Tokens (Silkscreened) for the Deluxe.

Does that mean the standard edition of TMG's Gentes will have single hour glass tokens instead of flippable tiles?

To me that could be a huge problem, especially without the dual-layered player board?

Can anyone confirm this?
 
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