Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Gloomhaven» Forums » Rules

Subject: [spoilers] Lightning bolt class questions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Sean McCarthy
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have several questions regarding Lightning Bolt's ability cards. Many of them boil down to questions about the timing of HP checks. Ideally I would like a general answer like "variables are always calculated at the start of the whole action" that will expand my understanding of the game rules as a whole. I definitely feel like I'm missing some rules knowledge right now as I'm not sure about many of this class's cards. Part of why I have so many questions is that the FAQ answers about a few of Lightning Bolt's cards surprise me, e.g. "If an item is used to attack multiple targets with the top attack, all targets would receive the full effect of the attack." is stated, but only for two of the variable-damage cards.

Resolute Stand top, Defiance of Death top: If you attack multiple enemies with the help of some other effect and get retaliated by the first target thus changing your current HP, does this affect the rest of the attack action? (Or similarly, what if you get healed during the attack action?)

Growing Rage top:
Essentially the same question, but what if your cards lost count changes during the attack action, e.g. if you get retaliated against and lose cards to prevent the damage.

Growing Rage bottom: is the XP contingent on the attack happening, or just on the hp situation + either the move or attack happening, or just on the hp situation? If your hp changes during the move, does it affect whether you get the second effect, or is that decided at the start of the action? If your hp goes up during the attack can that prevent the experience gain?

Defiance of Death bottom: Can you voluntarily apply this effect before applying shield or does it only kick in once the final damage total is determined?

Blood Pact top: What happens first, the card's own damage ability or retaliate if applicable? What about heal 1 self from attack modifiers? Do you suffer the damage multiple times if you use an item to attack multiple enemies? If the card's own damage can happen after your hp changes, is the "half" amount calculated at that moment or is it pre-calculated based on your current HP at the start of the attack action?

Numb the Pain bottom: If you exhaust yourself with the damage, do you still stun the enemy? Can you take the 2 damage if there's no enemy adjacent? What if there's one, and it's immune to stun?

Break the Chains bottom: If your HP changes up or down during the move (perhaps your first movement point puts you on hazardous terrain, for example), does it change whether you get the +2 movement, or is that calculated at the start of the move action? Bonus general question that I feel I should already know the answer to: When you do choose whether you're consuming fire to extend the move? Only at the start of the move action or anytime during it?

Seeing Red bottom: Same question as the first, but it's potentially a different answer because the effect is applied by an external card.

Is the "heal 2 self" action from a long rest optional?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Marney
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmb
To gain XP from a card or generate elements from it, you must perform an action listed on it. For Growing Rage, that means you can gain XP just from movement.

Each source of Shield will tell you whether it's optional or not. Armor is not optional, cards played by allies are not optional (just ask them not to play shield on you until you're below 50%), but you can choose whether to block with a shield or not.

In general, you need to modify actions before you use them, not halfway through. You can't retroactively consume fire to power up Break the Chains, just like you can't decide "I should drink a power potion" after you've drawn a 2x modifier card.

You can choose to power up a card even when it would have no effect - like suffering 2 damage to stun a boss that can't be stunned.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean McCarthy
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robyrt wrote:
To gain XP from a card or generate elements from it, you must perform an action listed on it. For Growing Rage, that means you can gain XP just from movement.


That is the minimum requirement, but for some abilities, XP is attached to a specific ability line. This card has a phrasing I haven't seen before and it's unclear to me whether the XP is intended to be attached to the attack or not.

Quote:
Each source of Shield will tell you whether it's optional or not. Armor is not optional, cards played by allies are not optional (just ask them not to play shield on you until you're below 50%), but you can choose whether to block with a shield or not.


It's not a question of whether the armor is optional (I'm talking about non-optional shields like Hide Armor here) but about whether the ability of Defiance of Death has a similar timing to shields (in which case, players choose the order in which to apply abilities, and you could choose Defiance of Death first), or if it has a later timing, and only applies based on the final calculated damage amount.

Quote:
In general, you need to modify actions before you use them, not halfway through. You can't retroactively consume fire to power up Break the Chains, just like you can't decide "I should drink a power potion" after you've drawn a 2x modifier card.


The specific rule I'm aware of (mentioned many times in the FAQ) is that you can't modify an attack ability after drawing the modifier card. I don't see any timing rules about non-attack abilities, which is why I'm asking. If you have a citation, I'm interested.

Quote:
You can choose to power up a card even when it would have no effect - like suffering 2 damage to stun a boss that can't be stunned.


Would like a citation. I know I can add effects to an attack that won't do anything, but I'm only 90% sure I can do a standalone effect that the target is immune to.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Ziemer
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hey I didn't have my cards with me so I was late with a reply but here goes. Caveat, this is just my interpretation.

Resolute Stand, etc... top: for these and many other atks, I would think that if the situation changed in between atks, I would adjust the attack for the next atk.

As an example: ranged atks made into aoe using an item. One of those atks will be normal and possibly some may be at disadvantage. So it is not expected that all atks will be identical, they will vary according to the situation changing.

Growing Rage, bottom:
a reason of the card seems to me to make it very clear l, the xp gain is part of the atk. "If you have ...perform Attack 2 and gain 1xp"

I would also say, no, you still gain 1 xp, even if you gain health as it doesn't say "then gain 1 xp if your health is still below half".

Defiance of Death. Bottom: You must apply this effect any time the conditions are met. Since this and say armour are the same situation I would rule that you could choose the order. You could apply armour which might remove the requirement for this effect, or you could apply this effect and no longer have the requirments to use the armour.

Blood past, top: I would put the retaliate before the ability damage. Retaliate is immediately after and part of the atk 6, where as the suffer damage comes after that as the next part of the card. That'd be my guess.

Numb the pain, bottom: if you exhausy yourself with the dmg your exhausted first and don't get to stun anyone. If there is no enemy present, you don't get to take the damage. If they are immune to stun, it should still be ok. Lime attacking a enemy with shield 4 with aan atk 1. It doesn't matter that it won't do anything.

Break the chains, bottom: Isaac has confirmed that you can consume elements at any point during the movement. If you took damage during a movement or healed, I would therefore rule that it would change the distance of the move in a similar way.

Seeing red bottom: Again, I would rule that if your situation changed mid attack, the +1 damage would now apply.

Ignoring heal 2 on long rest huh good question. You can ignore positive actions on cards. My instinct is to say no but I really have no idea why you couldn't. Not sure.

Hope that's helpful.
1 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean McCarthy
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
meziemer wrote:
Hope that's helpful.


Thanks, very helpful! If it's all correct (and it seems plausible) this clarifies most everything for me.

Four things I'm still confused by:

1) The FAQ saying "If an item is used to attack multiple targets with the top attack, all targets would receive the full effect of the attack." for Resolute Stand and Glass Hammer. If I just pretend that sentence isn't there, everything makes sense and is consistent, so maybe I should just do that? Maybe it's only there as a no-content preamble to the following sentence ("Experience, however, would be calculated separately, such that any remainder damage from the first attack does not roll over into the second attack.") and was not intending to be making a ruling about what happens if your current hp changes based on the first attack?

2) Break the Chains bottom. I guess even if I accept your ruling, I'm not sure what happens if I use my fourth of five movement points (assuming I'm currently below half health) to move onto healing terrain that puts me above half health and find myself having moved 4 spaces out of the 3 that I'm now allotted. If I then spend the flame, do I get +2 move (2 now remaining, so total 6) or +1 move (total now 5, so 1 remaining)? And then what if I take damage on my next movement point?

3) The long rest question.

4) I'm also realizing I have a new, more general question. How do I tell the difference between text that's adding an additional effect to an attack vs text that's standalone? All the text looks the same to me but I'm realizing that some of it was maybe intended to be standalone (and thus could be executed even if there's nothing to attack, and only gets applied once at the end even in the multiple attacks case).

E.g. Strength in Agony top: clearly the text is modifying the attack.
Blood Pact, Glass Hammer, Numb the Pain: Could be standalone?

Are you supposed to assume text is standalone unless it it's logically underspecified outside the context of the attack?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Ziemer
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
SevenSpirits wrote:


Four things I'm still confused by:

1) The FAQ saying "If an item is used to attack multiple targets with the top attack, all targets would receive the full effect of the attack." for Resolute Stand and Glass Hammer. If I just pretend that sentence isn't there, everything makes sense and is consistent, so maybe I should just do that? Maybe it's only there as a no-content preamble to the following sentence ("Experience, however, would be calculated separately, such that any remainder damage from the first attack does not roll over into the second attack.") and was not intending to be making a ruling about what happens if your current hp changes based on the first attack?


I would say that the FAQ is referring to things like consuming an element and that the bonus dmg or condition is applied to both atks and/or a new modifier card is drawn for each or something along those lines. I don't think it's saying the present circumstance isnt taken into account for determining each atk.

SevenSpirits wrote:

2) Break the Chains bottom. I guess even if I accept your ruling, I'm not sure what happens if I use my fourth of five movement points (assuming I'm currently below half health) to move onto healing terrain that puts me above half health and find myself having moved 4 spaces out of the 3 that I'm now allotted. If I then spend the flame, do I get +2 move (2 now remaining, so total 6) or +1 move (total now 5, so 1 remaining)? And then what if I take damage on my next movement point?


Hmm very good point. It seems like a pretty fringe case as I'm fairly certain there is no terrain or move location that allows you to heal, though you could choose to pop a heal potion in the middle of a move, maybe so you have enough health to survive a trap. It seems very confusing to manage but I still think it makes the most sense to adjust the move based on the circumstances, ie: it is the most consistent with other rules. Isaac seems to learn toward least confusing though and determining the move at the start of the move is the most straight forward in this case.

SevenSpirits wrote:

3) The long rest question.

4) I'm also realizing I have a new, more general question. How do I tell the difference between text that's adding an additional effect to an attack vs text that's standalone? All the text looks the same to me but I'm realizing that some of it was maybe intended to be standalone (and thus could be executed even if there's nothing to attack, and only gets applied once at the end even in the multiple attacks case).

E.g. Strength in Agony top: clearly the text is modifying the attack.
Blood Pact, Glass Hammer, Numb the Pain: Could be standalone?

Are you supposed to assume text is standalone unless it it's logically underspecified outside the context of the attack?


Generally speaking, if the text coming after an action is smaller (font size), it is tied to the action. However, this is often not the case. Usually, if the text is long, it will be required to be smaller and the space between will be bigger to separate them.

Also often, the smaller, tied text will have a : or other text that makes it obvious it's tied together. I think it's usually pretty intuitive what text is tied to above actions. Isaac and some others were working on a list of those types of situations for the FAQ so most should be clarified in there by now.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
R. Eric Reuss
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
We just unlocked the lightning-bolt class, so I've been following this with interest.

meziemer wrote:
Hmm very good point. It seems like a pretty fringe case as I'm fairly certain there is no terrain or move location that allows you to heal, though you could choose to pop a heal potion in the middle of a move, maybe so you have enough health to survive a trap.

I can think of at least one circumstance in which it'd be more common, but it involves spoilers.

Type of thing spoiled:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
An item.


Broadly how it's relevant, but not specific details:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
There's an item which lets you heal mid-move under certain circumstances.

The "details" spoiler below includes what the item is named / what it does, but not how you get it. (And for all I know, there's more than one such item, but I've only seen one.)


Specific details:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
There are boots called Magma Waders. While wearing them, you heal damage upon entering hazardous terrain.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean McCarthy
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
meziemer wrote:

I would say that the FAQ is referring to things like consuming an element and that the bonus dmg or condition is applied to both atks and/or a new modifier card is drawn for each or something along those lines. I don't think it's saying the present circumstance isnt taken into account for determining each atk.


In the case of resolute stand at least, there is no element consumption. The only way the secondary target attack damage could be affected is by retaliate or healing due to the attack. And this isn't a general clarification in the FAQ, it's specifically for that card. That's why I had all these other questions about retaliate.

A possibility that occurs to me is that it was inappropriately copied from the glass hammer entry, where it was a roundabout (and for me, more confusing than helpful) clarification that the HP loss effect is separate from the attack effect, therefore it doesn't happen until all attacks are complete.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean McCarthy
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
darker wrote:

I can think of at least one circumstance in which it'd be more common, but it involves spoilers.


Yeah, this is the one I was thinking of too.

However, I reread the text more closely and I don't think it actually creates a tricky rules situation after all:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
It lets you perform a heal action on a turn in which you entered hazardous terrain. And the FAQ is clear that "If an item grants an action, it cannot be used in the middle of another action".

So unless there are other circumstances where you might be able to heal mid-move this question is moot. I'm still interested in what the answer is though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Ziemer
Canada
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
SevenSpirits wrote:

So unless there are other circumstances where you might be able to heal mid-move this question is moot. I'm still interested in what the answer is though.


Yah you could definitely pop a heal pot mid move and also take dmg mid move so it is a good question.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean McCarthy
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bump.

Still hoping for official or cited answers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean McCarthy
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean McCarthy
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In the absence of a ruling, FWIW, here's how I'm answering my questions. Where applicable I'm going with Matt's response, the broad summary of which is "update calculated quantities immediately (though not for a single specific attack after already drawing an attack modifier)".


Q: How to reconcile the FAQ response with Matt's answers?

A: Pretend the FAQ doesn't include that sentence. It's probably an accident.


Q: What if you're moving extra with Break the Chains due to your low health and heal above half during the move?

A: The move 5 immediately becomes a move 3. If you've already moved 4, that's fine, but now if you add 2 move back by consuming fire or using Boots of Striding, it's still only a move 5 action in total so you can only move 1 space further.


Q: Can I decline the healing from a long rest?

A: Yes.

- Rulebook on long rests says you perform a "heal 2, self" action.
- FAQ says in response to "Can I choose to not perform specific parts of an action and what is considered a negative effect?": "You may skip any other ability or effect [than a specific list that does not include heals]"

(Tentative additional ruling: you may choose to not refresh spent items, even though the rulebook doesn't call it an action. Honestly though I don't know what to do with this.)


Q: Are the text effects that look like they might be part of the attack actually part of the attack on Blood Pact, Glass Hammer, Numb the Pain?

A: No, they are separate effects.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
tibbles von tibbleton
United States
Oregon
flag msg tools
Dang it, I just discovered this thread. I think the real downside to the whole spoiler thing is you can’t tell if you’re asking the same question. I’ve wondered similar to the “when are variables calculated?” for a different class for a few days too. Hopefully someone can phrase an answer generically for the faq so the question doesn’t keep getting asked inside ability spoiler threads.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Isaac Childres
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
All right, sorry it took so long to respond to this thread. For the most part, Matt's initial response and Sean's finally summary of his best guess answers for the remaining questions are correct, so let's get into the few points where they are not, or further clarification is needed:

meziemer wrote:
Hey I didn't have my cards with me so I was late with a reply but here goes. Caveat, this is just my interpretation.

Resolute Stand, etc... top: for these and many other atks, I would think that if the situation changed in between atks, I would adjust the attack for the next atk.

As an example: ranged atks made into aoe using an item. One of those atks will be normal and possibly some may be at disadvantage. So it is not expected that all atks will be identical, they will vary according to the situation changing.

This is all correct. I just wanted to address the larger issue here about sequential attacks that I just made a ruling on in another thread, if that is helpful to this discussion:

"Separate attacks from an attack ability (due to, for instance, target X or an area effect) are resolved sequentially, not simultaneously. And, obviously, separate attack abilities in the same attack action are resolved in the sequence they are written. No attacks are resolved simultaneously. You resolve one attack, including any additional effects of the attack like push/pull or retaliation, then resolve the next attack."

Quote:

Growing Rage, bottom:
a reason of the card seems to me to make it very clear l, the xp gain is part of the atk. "If you have ...perform Attack 2 and gain 1xp"

I would also say, no, you still gain 1 xp, even if you gain health as it doesn't say "then gain 1 xp if your health is still below half".

Defiance of Death. Bottom: You must apply this effect any time the conditions are met. Since this and say armour are the same situation I would rule that you could choose the order. You could apply armour which might remove the requirement for this effect, or you could apply this effect and no longer have the requirments to use the armour.

Blood past, top: I would put the retaliate before the ability damage. Retaliate is immediately after and part of the atk 6, where as the suffer damage comes after that as the next part of the card. That'd be my guess.

This is all correct.

Quote:
Numb the pain, bottom: if you exhausy yourself with the dmg your exhausted first and don't get to stun anyone. If there is no enemy present, you don't get to take the damage. If they are immune to stun, it should still be ok. Lime attacking a enemy with shield 4 with aan atk 1. It doesn't matter that it won't do anything.

The first sentence here is incorrect. You would stun the enemy (if it can be stunned). If an ability says "do X to do Y," those effects happen simultaneously. Note, however, that if the "Y" part is getting a bonus to an ability like an attack or a move, if you exhaust yourself, you don't get to then attack or move. You resolve applying the bonus first (which is where you would take the damage and possibly get exhausted), and then take the action (if you aren't exhausted).

The other parts of this answer are correct.

Quote:
Break the chains, bottom: Isaac has confirmed that you can consume elements at any point during the movement. If you took damage during a movement or healed, I would therefore rule that it would change the distance of the move in a similar way.

Elements can be consumed at any point, yes, but conditional bonuses to abilities like these should be resolved and applied before the ability takes place. Thus, any damage or healing that you take during your movement would not affect the bonus.

Quote:
Seeing red bottom: Again, I would rule that if your situation changed mid attack, the +1 damage would now apply.

Ignoring heal 2 on long rest huh good question. You can ignore positive actions on cards. My instinct is to say no but I really have no idea why you couldn't. Not sure.

Hope that's helpful.

You can decide not to perform the heal on a long rest. More on this in the next set of replies.

SevenSpirits wrote:
In the absence of a ruling, FWIW, here's how I'm answering my questions. Where applicable I'm going with Matt's response, the broad summary of which is "update calculated quantities immediately (though not for a single specific attack after already drawing an attack modifier)".


Q: How to reconcile the FAQ response with Matt's answers?

A: Pretend the FAQ doesn't include that sentence. It's probably an accident.

You are correct. This sentence in the Resolute Stand section is not accurate and is misleading. Since the text below the attack is tied to the attack, if you made this multi-target, the results of first attack could affect the execution of the second attack.

Quote:
Q: What if you're moving extra with Break the Chains due to your low health and heal above half during the move?

A: The move 5 immediately becomes a move 3. If you've already moved 4, that's fine, but now if you add 2 move back by consuming fire or using Boots of Striding, it's still only a move 5 action in total so you can only move 1 space further.

Answered above.

Quote:
Q: Can I decline the healing from a long rest?

A: Yes.

- Rulebook on long rests says you perform a "heal 2, self" action.
- FAQ says in response to "Can I choose to not perform specific parts of an action and what is considered a negative effect?": "You may skip any other ability or effect [than a specific list that does not include heals]"

(Tentative additional ruling: you may choose to not refresh spent items, even though the rulebook doesn't call it an action. Honestly though I don't know what to do with this.)

You can also choose not to refresh your items on long rest. The only thing you have to do on a long rest is lose a card from your discard and put the rest back into your hand.

Quote:
Q: Are the text effects that look like they might be part of the attack actually part of the attack on Blood Pact, Glass Hammer, Numb the Pain?

A: No, they are separate effects.

The main indicator here is spacing, though admittedly it is not the best indicator and we'll be working on something better (like lines) for future printings (though not the third printing, which is already well underway). There is more space separating stand-alone text than text tied to an attack. If you find discerning the difference in spacing to be an insufficient indication, also consider, as a general rule of thumb, if the text makes no reference to the preceding attack (by adding an effect or +attack or clarifying what X is), then you can assume it is a separate ability. You can also generalize this rule of thumb beyond attacks (for instance, text that references a move ability versus text that doesn't).
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean McCarthy
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Excellent, thorough response - thank you!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.