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Subject: More evidence of the Christian/Evangelical Split rss

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Mike Stiles
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So this has been a subtheme for a while, especially as the Evangelical movement has gone more and more off the deep end.

With that in mind, I think we can agree that Jythier is probably the strongest (or at least the most visible) Fundamentalist Christian to post (semi) regularly on RSP.

To me, it was heartening and to the point, to see him post this in another thread.

Jythier wrote:
It would be nice if fundamentalist Christianity didn't mean guns and saying you're against abortions while secretly paying for them for your sidepiece.


Lynette has said some very similar things in the past as well.

This is about Christians rejecting Cultural Evangelicals, and I think it's necessary and overdue.

The questions then are 2:

1) Can it work? Can we actually meaningfully shed them if they continue to Identify as Christian?
2) How does this relate to the secularization/abandonment of sects we see everywhere in culture today?

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Matthew Schoell
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windsagio wrote:
So this has been a subtheme for a while, especially as the Evangelical movement has gone more and more off the deep end.

With that in mind, I think we can agree that Jythier is probably the strongest (or at least the most visible) Fundamentalist Christian to post (semi) regularly on RSP.

To me, it was heartening and to the point, to see him post this in another thread.

Jythier wrote:
It would be nice if fundamentalist Christianity didn't mean guns and saying you're against abortions while secretly paying for them for your sidepiece.


Lynette has said some very similar things in the past as well.

This is about Christians rejecting Cultural Evangelicals, and I think it's necessary and overdue.

The questions then are 2:

1) Can it work? Can we actually meaningfully shed them if they continue to Identify as Christian?
2) How does this relate to the secularization/abandonment of sects we see everywhere in culture today?



When you say "we" in question 1, who is the "we"? Christians, society at large, RSP?

As for question 2, I'm not sure it does. I'm not an expert on secularization and abandonment, but a mark of the modern world is being able to go out and find your people/tribe/community. If you can do that, and it's based on, oh I don't know, an obsessive love of board games... what need for a religious community? The answer to that question is probably to fulfill a particular need in your life - but if you don't have that particular need, then what? I suspect a lot of dereligionating of society has more to do with the fact that there is little social necessity to join a religion, and its very easy to escape pressure to be part of a religion. I'm open to being proven wrong on that, it's pure conjecture.

Mostly, I'm going to be excessively proud of myself for wordifying "dereligionating"
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windsagio wrote:
So this has been a subtheme for a while, especially as the Evangelical movement has gone more and more off the deep end.

With that in mind, I think we can agree that Jythier is probably the strongest (or at least the most visible) Fundamentalist Christian to post (semi) regularly on RSP.

To me, it was heartening and to the point, to see him post this in another thread.

Jythier wrote:
It would be nice if fundamentalist Christianity didn't mean guns and saying you're against abortions while secretly paying for them for your sidepiece.


Lynette has said some very similar things in the past as well.

This is about Christians rejecting Cultural Evangelicals, and I think it's necessary and overdue.

The questions then are 2:

1) Can it work? Can we actually meaningfully shed them if they continue to Identify as Christian?
2) How does this relate to the secularization/abandonment of sects we see everywhere in culture today?



I'm not sure who define Christianity in those terms, but Pro-Guns and Anti-abortion arent the defining characteristics of Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity, though they may be traits of its members.

Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity is defined by the need to experience Born-Again Salvation by Confession of Sins, Repentance/Rejection of Sin, Accepting/Believing Jesus Christ as the Savior of the World/Personal Savior to the individual, and Belief that the Gospel is the true unchanging word of God.
if those are the terms that christians what to shed... then whats left would have a hard time describing itself as christian.
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Doc Mage wrote:
windsagio wrote:
So this has been a subtheme for a while, especially as the Evangelical movement has gone more and more off the deep end.

With that in mind, I think we can agree that Jythier is probably the strongest (or at least the most visible) Fundamentalist Christian to post (semi) regularly on RSP.

To me, it was heartening and to the point, to see him post this in another thread.

Jythier wrote:
It would be nice if fundamentalist Christianity didn't mean guns and saying you're against abortions while secretly paying for them for your sidepiece.


Lynette has said some very similar things in the past as well.

This is about Christians rejecting Cultural Evangelicals, and I think it's necessary and overdue.

The questions then are 2:

1) Can it work? Can we actually meaningfully shed them if they continue to Identify as Christian?
2) How does this relate to the secularization/abandonment of sects we see everywhere in culture today?



When you say "we" in question 1, who is the "we"? Christians, society at large, RSP?

As for question 2, I'm not sure it does. I'm not an expert on secularization and abandonment, but a mark of the modern world is being able to go out and find your people/tribe/community. If you can do that, and it's based on, oh I don't know, an obsessive love of board games... what need for a religious community? The answer to that question is probably to fulfill a particular need in your life - but if you don't have that particular need, then what? I suspect a lot of dereligionating of society has more to do with the fact that there is little social necessity to join a religion, and its very easy to escape pressure to be part of a religion. I'm open to being proven wrong on that, it's pure conjecture.

Mostly, I'm going to be excessively proud of myself for wordifying "dereligionating"


"We" probably means "Christians", sorry for the slip there :p
 
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sao123 wrote:
windsagio wrote:
So this has been a subtheme for a while, especially as the Evangelical movement has gone more and more off the deep end.

With that in mind, I think we can agree that Jythier is probably the strongest (or at least the most visible) Fundamentalist Christian to post (semi) regularly on RSP.

To me, it was heartening and to the point, to see him post this in another thread.

Jythier wrote:
It would be nice if fundamentalist Christianity didn't mean guns and saying you're against abortions while secretly paying for them for your sidepiece.


Lynette has said some very similar things in the past as well.

This is about Christians rejecting Cultural Evangelicals, and I think it's necessary and overdue.

The questions then are 2:

1) Can it work? Can we actually meaningfully shed them if they continue to Identify as Christian?
2) How does this relate to the secularization/abandonment of sects we see everywhere in culture today?



I'm not sure who define Christianity in those terms, but Pro-Guns and Anti-abortion arent the defining characteristics of Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity, though they may be traits of its members.

Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity is defined by the need to experience Born-Again Salvation by Confession of Sins, Repentance/Rejection of Sin, Accepting/Believing Jesus Christ as the Savior of the World/Personal Savior to the individual, and Belief that the Gospel is the true unchanging word of God.
if those are the terms that christians what to shed... then whats left would have a hard time describing itself as christian.


The point is that it's becoming increasingly clear that a very large group of self-described "Evangelicals" don't give a damn about any of that stuff, as reflected in their political behavior.

I thought it was interesting because Jay, who while I don't entirely agree with him, is clearly a legitimate and committed Fundamentalist Christian is also commenting on the *VERY* negative connotations that have developed around the Cultural Evangelical.

~~~

Edit: Simplified, it's about Christianity as a whole increasingly recognizing and rejecting the explicit hypocrisy of the Trumpian "Evangelicals".
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There are people who are very pro-Trump in my church and I just don't get it. Anti-Hillary I can understand but pro-Trump on his own merits??

I do live in a rural area.

I never believed him about anything. My response to every post about him, in my head probably, was "But he is lying. He's not going to do that thing."

I really thought evangelicals would come out for Gary Johnson, who had integrity. But no, they came out for Trump, and some of them are still backing him. I don't understand what they see in him at all, besides an R after his name.
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Are White Evangelicals Sacrificing The Future In Search Of The Past?

I think Christianity is going to have a difficult enough time being what it currently is as we moved forward(whites becoming a major minority), but I do think we are 20ish years away from Evangelicals being much smaller or rather different. I think their biggest struggle is they are Christian Nationalist and ultimately want Christian morals inserted into the law of the land. The problem is using Biblical law on non-Christians in a nation with separation of church and state. That's not going to be a message which translates to a new generation.

And yes, it does feel weird to say based on estimates that in 14 years whites will be a major minor race in the US and the baby boomer generation will mostly be gone. Hell, Gen Xers with be in their 60s in many cases.
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A more accurate way to phrase it is that Evangelicals whose interest are in the religion are trying to rebrand to separate themselves from the political faction. This isn't a Christian/Evangelical schism.
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Jythier wrote:
I really thought evangelicals would come out for Gary Johnson, who had integrity. But no, they came out for Trump, and some of them are still backing him. I don't understand what they see in him at all, besides an R after his name.


Gary wasn't getting the evangelicals. His reported use of weed would be far too much of a no go. I also know people who will say you can't be a Christian if you don't vote Republican.
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mlcarter815 wrote:
A more accurate way to phrase it is that Evangelicals whose interest are in the religion are trying to rebrand to separate themselves from the political faction. This isn't a Christian/Evangelical schism.


That's probably true, but if rural Christians aren't the ones who voted for Trump I have no idea where his votes came from.
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matthean wrote:
Jythier wrote:
I really thought evangelicals would come out for Gary Johnson, who had integrity. But no, they came out for Trump, and some of them are still backing him. I don't understand what they see in him at all, besides an R after his name.


Gary wasn't getting the evangelicals. His reported use of weed would be far too much of a no go. I also know people who will say you can't be a Christian if you don't vote Republican.


When you look at it from the point of view that Trump sexually assaulted women and bragged about it, using a little weed really wasn't a big deal. I don't understand the priorities people have. Or thinking that Trump gave a shit about abortion, I'm thinking those people were the ones smoking something.
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matthean wrote:
I think their biggest struggle is they are Christian Nationalist and ultimately want Christian morals inserted into the law of the land. The problem is using Biblical law on non-Christians in a nation with separation of church and state. That's not going to be a message which translates to a new generation.


Except the crux of the conflict is about "Evangelicals" (I'm abusing the hell out of those finger quotes, I know) supporting a lying philandering cheating scumbag like Trump, and saying things like "We'll give him a Mulligan". Trump doesn't remotely want any form of Biblical law, and that's shockingly clear. And yet that group is very loyal to him - much to the disgust and annoyance of other Christians.

mlcarter815 wrote:
A more accurate way to phrase it is that Evangelicals whose interest are in the religion are trying to rebrand to separate themselves from the political faction. This isn't a Christian/Evangelical schism.


Language changes though, and it's starting to feel like the term "Evangelical" will be deeply tarnished for quite a while.

"No true Scotsman" is always a risk, but I'm pretty comfortable saying that however you identify, the things the group in question support are almost entirely in direct conflict with what Christianity is supposed to be about.
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windsagio wrote:
sao123 wrote:
windsagio wrote:
So this has been a subtheme for a while, especially as the Evangelical movement has gone more and more off the deep end.

With that in mind, I think we can agree that Jythier is probably the strongest (or at least the most visible) Fundamentalist Christian to post (semi) regularly on RSP.

To me, it was heartening and to the point, to see him post this in another thread.

Jythier wrote:
It would be nice if fundamentalist Christianity didn't mean guns and saying you're against abortions while secretly paying for them for your sidepiece.


Lynette has said some very similar things in the past as well.

This is about Christians rejecting Cultural Evangelicals, and I think it's necessary and overdue.

The questions then are 2:

1) Can it work? Can we actually meaningfully shed them if they continue to Identify as Christian?
2) How does this relate to the secularization/abandonment of sects we see everywhere in culture today?



I'm not sure who define Christianity in those terms, but Pro-Guns and Anti-abortion arent the defining characteristics of Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity, though they may be traits of its members.

Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity is defined by the need to experience Born-Again Salvation by Confession of Sins, Repentance/Rejection of Sin, Accepting/Believing Jesus Christ as the Savior of the World/Personal Savior to the individual, and Belief that the Gospel is the true unchanging word of God.
if those are the terms that christians what to shed... then whats left would have a hard time describing itself as christian.


The point is that it's becoming increasingly clear that a very large group of self-described "Evangelicals" don't give a damn about any of that stuff, as reflected in their political behavior.

I thought it was interesting because Jay, who while I don't entirely agree with him, is clearly a legitimate and committed Fundamentalist Christian is also commenting on the *VERY* negative connotations that have developed around the Cultural Evangelical.

~~~

Edit: Simplified, it's about Christianity as a whole increasingly recognizing and rejecting the explicit hypocrisy of the Trumpian "Evangelicals".



well for starters... I dont understand what he meant by:
Quote:
while secretly paying for them for your sidepiece.


Would you care to list of explicit hypocrisies?


Form where i sit, backing Hillary would have been equally just as hypocritical. if there had been a true evangelical leaning candidate like Ted Cruz im sure thats who every one of them would have voted for.
so your solution is for them to... Not vote? Unacceptable.

But you can't call the evangelicals hypocritical because of a flaw in a 2 party system.
 
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I sure can. Because reality shows me more than 2 candidates on the ballot every time.
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windsagio wrote:
matthean wrote:
I think their biggest struggle is they are Christian Nationalist and ultimately want Christian morals inserted into the law of the land. The problem is using Biblical law on non-Christians in a nation with separation of church and state. That's not going to be a message which translates to a new generation.


Except the crux of the conflict is about "Evangelicals" (I'm abusing the hell out of those finger quotes, I know) supporting a lying philandering cheating scumbag like Trump, and saying things like "We'll give him a Mulligan". Trump doesn't remotely want any form of Biblical law, and that's shockingly clear. And yet that group is very loyal to him - much to the disgust and annoyance of other Christians.


They picked policy over the person. Granted, I have an uncle who put a Trump sign in his yard.
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But that's insane. How can you pick a policy when the person is so flighty that he changed his stance on most of the issues within the campaign, never mind the change from 5 years ago?
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Jythier wrote:
matthean wrote:
Jythier wrote:
I really thought evangelicals would come out for Gary Johnson, who had integrity. But no, they came out for Trump, and some of them are still backing him. I don't understand what they see in him at all, besides an R after his name.


Gary wasn't getting the evangelicals. His reported use of weed would be far too much of a no go. I also know people who will say you can't be a Christian if you don't vote Republican.


When you look at it from the point of view that Trump sexually assaulted women and bragged about it, using a little weed really wasn't a big deal. I don't understand the priorities people have. Or thinking that Trump gave a shit about abortion, I'm thinking those people were the ones smoking something.


See policy over the person. Also, Johnson had no real shot at winning so he was a tough sale to start.
 
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Jythier wrote:
But that's insane. How can you pick a policy when the person is so flighty that he changed his stance on most of the issues within the campaign, never mind the change from 5 years ago?


Did you honestly think Christian Republicans are in mass going to vote for a Pro-Choice candidate?
 
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matthean wrote:
Jythier wrote:
But that's insane. How can you pick a policy when the person is so flighty that he changed his stance on most of the issues within the campaign, never mind the change from 5 years ago?


Did you honestly think Christian Republicans are in mass going to vote for a Pro-Choice candidate?


They did.
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Jythier wrote:
matthean wrote:
Jythier wrote:
But that's insane. How can you pick a policy when the person is so flighty that he changed his stance on most of the issues within the campaign, never mind the change from 5 years ago?


Did you honestly think Christian Republicans are in mass going to vote for a Pro-Choice candidate?


They did.


Not based on his Supreme Court pick. Trump campaigned hard for Christians and he knows that's one base he can't screw over.
 
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matthean wrote:
Jythier wrote:
matthean wrote:
Jythier wrote:
But that's insane. How can you pick a policy when the person is so flighty that he changed his stance on most of the issues within the campaign, never mind the change from 5 years ago?


Did you honestly think Christian Republicans are in mass going to vote for a Pro-Choice candidate?


They did.


Not based on his Supreme Court pick. Trump campaigned hard for Christians and he knows that's one base he can't screw over.


I admire your faith.
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His Supreme Court pick really changed things.
 
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Jythier wrote:
His Supreme Court pick really changed things.


He's been there a year and will be for many. Others are likely to step down which means more appointments. The idea is that as soon as the Supreme Court is weighted towards the right, abortion will get overturned. That's what Trump voters are betting on. He can swing the Supreme Court for numerous years.
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More likely they just lower corporate liability standards and keep abortion.
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Jythier wrote:
More likely they just lower corporate liability standards and keep abortion.


The reality doesn't matter. It is what they voted for.
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