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Subject: How do you choose which corporations you play with? rss

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David Murray
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Context: My Group decided early that certain corporations such as the plant corporation and city corporation were overpowered. Seeking to prove them wrong, I suggested that we auction off the corporations similar to power plant auctions in Power Grid. This method works great! If anyone perceives that a corporation is OP they can bid it up. When you bid, the money is taken from the pool of starting money you receive (varies per corporation).

So, how do you decide who gets what?
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Marcus S
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Are people going to bid up a corp just because they think it is OP in your group's meta? What corp you bid on should be more directly tied to your starting 10 cards I think.

There have been plenty of discussions about how to select starting corps and starting cards... For us, we just deal out corps randomly (sometimes more than 2 if we feel like it).
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General Norris
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I agree it's silly to decide early one that this or another card is overpowered. Personally, I don't think Tharsis Republic nor Ecoline are overpowered. I would rather play Credicor or Teractor, everything else being equal.

We just use the standard rules. We give two Corporations to each player and play from there.

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tamuangry wrote:
Context: My Group decided early that certain corporations such as the plant corporation and city corporation were overpowered. Seeking to prove them wrong, I suggested that we auction off the corporations similar to power plant auctions in Power Grid. This method works great! If anyone perceives that a corporation is OP they can bid it up. When you bid, the money is taken from the pool of starting money you receive (varies per corporation).

So, how do you decide who gets what?


For the most part no cooperation is truly op. The issue mainly lies in that some cooperation are far more consistent which is to say that they can be played with just about any hand whereas other cooperation really need a decent supporting hand to be played well.

Genetically good:
Credicor, Teractor: High Starting money, easy non-intrusive abilities.

Republic Tharsis, Saturn Systems: Increased starting income with easy, non-intrusive means to get more as the game goes on.

Helion. Interplanetary Cinematics: Easy to use, non-intrusive benefits.

Generally good but does want support:

Ecoline: In the long run plants are strong and starting with free income is great. Biggest issue is that plants are frequently targeted for destruction and you really need city support to make them pay off fully.

Mining Guild: By far the best income ramping in the game however really needs quick and easy early game tile placements to work really well.

Thorgate: Needs means to use power (either via converting cubes or as payment for other cards) to really shine.

UNMI: Needs easy/reliable means to increase terraforming regularly. If you cannot guarantee pushes on the first two/three turns probably a bad pick.

Needs a lot of support:
Phob Log: Far too much of it's starting money is tied up in titanium greatly limiting their early game plus lacks a reliable means to increase their income. Needs good early space cards in opening hand to realistically do anything.

Inventrix: Dangerous crap shoot. Starting the game with 3 random cards can be good or bad, and the ability to sometimes be able to overcome a parameter value is not reliable enough to guarantee value.
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John Bailey
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Random draw of 2 corps. You get what you get.
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David Murray
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CarcuS wrote:
Are people going to bid up a corp just because they think it is OP in your group's meta? What corp you bid on should be more directly tied to your starting 10 cards I think.


Yes, I paid 10 credits for the Mining guild and still won. I agree that the corporation you select should be based on your starting 10 cards. Since we draft cards (starting 10 and the 4 each turn), it doesn’t have much of an impact - you can usually get cards to match your corporation. I honestly don’t mind getting two random corporations as long as ALL the corporations are in the mix. I didn’t like that some corporations were removed by my group because they thought they were too powerful.
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Bill Buchanan
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2 corporations dealt randomly,

then card draft of initial 10 cards as follows:

1. Deal 5 card to each player; draft cards around the table.

2. Deal another 5 card to each player; draft cards around the table .


Then Players which of the two corporations they want to play with ...


Note: We usually play 2-player
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Marcus S
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tamuangry wrote:
CarcuS wrote:
Are people going to bid up a corp just because they think it is OP in your group's meta? What corp you bid on should be more directly tied to your starting 10 cards I think.


Yes, I paid 10 credits for the Mining guild and still won. I agree that the corporation you select should be based on your starting 10 cards. Since we draft cards (starting 10 and the 4 each turn), it doesn’t have much of an impact - you can usually get cards to match your corporation. I honestly don’t mind getting two random corporations as long as ALL the corporations are in the mix. I didn’t like that some corporations were removed by my group because they thought they were too powerful.

This is my biggest issue with drafting either corps or starting cards... These have to be selected in unison, IMO. So drafting cards before knowing which corp you have doesn't make sense, and vice versa.... And assuming you draft the opening 10 cards one at a time, you really have no idea what your starting hand will look like.. you can see 5 building tags in the opening cards you see, so you choose one going for a steel strategy, then your next set of cards have all plant/microbe tags and no building tags, so you change up your drafting strategy.. meanwhile of those starting 5 building tags, none of them make it back around to you... I personally don't like it and is the reason we will always play with random starting hands and corps.
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Dave Moser
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* Deal 10 cards and two Corporation cards.

* No drafting of the initial 10 cards.

* Select your corporation based on starting hand of 10.

* Alternating draft of 4 in all subsequent research phases.


That's how we do it. YMMV.
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David Murray
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CarcuS wrote:
tamuangry wrote:
CarcuS wrote:
Are people going to bid up a corp just because they think it is OP in your group's meta? What corp you bid on should be more directly tied to your starting 10 cards I think.


Yes, I paid 10 credits for the Mining guild and still won. I agree that the corporation you select should be based on your starting 10 cards. Since we draft cards (starting 10 and the 4 each turn), it doesn’t have much of an impact - you can usually get cards to match your corporation. I honestly don’t mind getting two random corporations as long as ALL the corporations are in the mix. I didn’t like that some corporations were removed by my group because they thought they were too powerful.

This is my biggest issue with drafting either corps or starting cards... These have to be selected in unison, IMO. So drafting cards before knowing which corp you have doesn't make sense, and vice versa.... And assuming you draft the opening 10 cards one at a time, you really have no idea what your starting hand will look like.. you can see 5 building tags in the opening cards you see, so you choose one going for a steel strategy, then your next set of cards have all plant/microbe tags and no building tags, so you change up your drafting strategy.. meanwhile of those starting 5 building tags, none of them make it back around to you... I personally don't like it and is the reason we will always play with random starting hands and corps.



Noted. What about this:

In a 3 player game, take the top 30 cards and flip them over so everyone can review what will be available during the drafting period. Then people bid on the corporations. Then the 30 cards are shuffled and dealt out to start the card drafting.

Thoughts? I think I will try this out tomorrow.
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Richard Young
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Bigb0420 wrote:
Random draw of 2 corps. You get what you get.
This...
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Joshua Hall
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Played a 5-player game last night with the Venus Next corporations mixed in. We dealt 3 to each player because YOLO.
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Bill Buchanan
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JDGroovy wrote:
Played a 5-player game last night with the Venus Next corporations mixed in. We dealt 3 to each player because YOLO.


I've often thought about dealing out some extra corps, but so far we haven't. Probably will sooner rather than later ...
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Corps are not balanced at all.
J- I like your write up with most, but I have a few disagreements. People like credicor, but I think its average at best, you aren't going to see too many 20+s that you get money back, and how is this ANY different than say phobolog at 4/titanium resource which they start with and will be getting every turn? In my mind, the mining corps, hellion, and umni in general are the best, with thor potentially competing. Everyone else needs cards to even stand a chance.

OP - Ecoline sucks, likely one of the worst, plants are one of the worst ways to go, as they are too hard to get up to speed, and the game can be over before you can 'forest everything'.
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David Murray
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dragon0085 wrote:


OP - Ecoline sucks, likely one of the worst, plants are one of the worst ways to go, as they are too hard to get up to speed, and the game can be over before you can 'forest everything'.


No argument from me, I changed the corporation method to prove that point
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dragon0085 wrote:
OP - Ecoline sucks, likely one of the worst, plants are one of the worst ways to go, as they are too hard to get up to speed, and the game can be over before you can 'forest everything'.

Yeah, that was why the Ecoline player won tonight's 4-player game solidly.

Every corp sucks if you cannot play to its strengths. Sometimes, just maybe it's not the corporation's fault though.
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G K
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OP -
How many corps do you put out?
Who gets to put up the first corp for auction?
Where does the dealing and drafting of the starting ten happen in all this?
What's your sequence for drafting the 10 (e.g. keep X, pass Y, then keep M, pass N, and so on).

I guess this can kind of sort of prove that your group overvalues some of the corps, or maybe it can just prove that one of you is good at driving up auction prices.
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WBuchanan wrote:
JDGroovy wrote:
Played a 5-player game last night with the Venus Next corporations mixed in. We dealt 3 to each player because YOLO.


I've often thought about dealing out some extra corps, but so far we haven't. Probably will sooner rather than later ...

Yeah, we generally do 3, because, why not? Doesn't increase play time, gives more options... Simple and effective.
dragon0085 wrote:
People like credicor, but I think its average at best, you aren't going to see too many 20+s that you get money back, and how is this ANY different than say phobolog at 4/titanium resource which they start with and will be getting every turn? In my mind, the mining corps, hellion, and umni in general are the best, with thor potentially competing. Everyone else needs cards to even stand a chance.

Because Phobolog doesn't start with any titanium production.... So they also require cards to stand a chance... they are really tough to choose if you don't have any titanium production in your starting hand, making them very card dependent.

The collected statistics don't really agree with your valuations of the corporations, so maybe it's more of a meta thing in your group? To say corps aren't balanced at all, and then go on to basically say the exact opposite of the statistics is a bit suspicious of some group think...
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dragon0085 wrote:
Corps are not balanced at all.
J- I like your write up with most, but I have a few disagreements. People like credicor, but I think its average at best, you aren't going to see too many 20+s that you get money back, and how is this ANY different than say phobolog at 4/titanium resource which they start with and will be getting every turn? In my mind, the mining corps, hellion, and umni in general are the best, with thor potentially competing. Everyone else needs cards to even stand a chance.

OP - Ecoline sucks, likely one of the worst, plants are one of the worst ways to go, as they are too hard to get up to speed, and the game can be over before you can 'forest everything'.

This is one way I can tell that the corporations are balanced: everyone has a different idea about which ones are good or bad.
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David Murray
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gersonk wrote:
OP -
How many corps do you put out?
Who gets to put up the first corp for auction?
Where does the dealing and drafting of the starting ten happen in all this?
What's your sequence for drafting the 10 (e.g. keep X, pass Y, then keep M, pass N, and so on).

I guess this can kind of sort of prove that your group overvalues some of the corps, or maybe it can just prove that one of you is good at driving up auction prices.


All
Random person starts auctions, see power grid
After
Keep one, pass rest until everyone has 10 cards

Yes, I would not mind returning to random at some point. Although, our games take 3-4 hours and I would like to spend that time with a corporation I like.
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JadedGamer wrote:
dragon0085 wrote:
OP - Ecoline sucks, likely one of the worst, plants are one of the worst ways to go, as they are too hard to get up to speed, and the game can be over before you can 'forest everything'.

Yeah, that was why the Ecoline player won tonight's 4-player game solidly.

Every corp sucks if you cannot play to its strengths. Sometimes, just maybe it's not the corporation's fault though.


Heh...do you realize an exception is not an argument? You are literally making an argument like 'I saw someone win chess without pawns, therefore anyone who says you need pawns is wrong'

I could go into detail why ecoline is inferior to others, but I'll leave with a simple explanation, their big thing is getting forests down, but even with their starting and income, it takes until turn 3 (and then turn 6~ after) for ONE forest that boosts TR by 1. UMNI by contrast can do that its first turn, and by turn 3 be up 3 to 1 on the TRs just based on corp power.

 
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CarcuS wrote:


The collected statistics don't really agree with your valuations of the corporations, so maybe it's more of a meta thing in your group? To say corps aren't balanced at all, and then go on to basically say the exact opposite of the statistics is a bit suspicious of some group think...


Extremely disingenuous insult you are trying to label me with. The only 'disagreement' with the stats is me saying I don't think credicor is that good, which the stats in fact show is not the best, I explicitly stated the mining ones are the best,

dragon0085 wrote:
Corps are not balanced at all.
People like credicor, but I think its average at best

In my mind, the mining corps, hellion, and umni in general are the best, with thor potentially competing. Everyone else needs cards to even stand a chance.


which the stats one person has posted show the miners to be the best, making my statement to be true. Likewise, it shows ecoline as one of the worst, exactly as I stated:

dragon0085 wrote:

OP - Ecoline sucks, likely one of the worst


So you can try to cherry pick my statement but my own experience and analyzing largely coincides with what the 'data' shows. Regardless, the entire point is to OP which is whether they are balanced or not, clearly the answer is no.
 
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I think Allstar's assesment is very good, I agree with it.

I don't think collected statistics means much, though, as inexperience is a big factor. UNMI being the Corporation with the second-worst

Personally, I think that balance-wise, there are only minor issues.

Credicor's ability is a little bit too strong in some games, specially when it comes to standard projects. The designers have mentioned reducing the bonus from 4 to 3, which seems fair. There are a couple games in which Credicor is a bit too comfortable playing a similar game to Tharsis Republic for my liking.

UNMI is always competitive but has a tendence to end up in second place. The issue is that you have to spend 3 credits ever single turn and you don't see a benefit until the 8th generation. The brother of the designer said they are considering reducing the cost from 3 to 1, though I think 3 to 2 would be more than enough.

This doesn't seem like a big chance, but it woud let UNMI get more cards and actually play them. There are too many games in which the best route for it is to not buy anything, or buy a highly specific card and just roll foward which is a bit boring.

Inventrix suffers heavily from the fact that cards are overcosted. A random pull of three cards is not worth the equivalent of 9 credits at the start of the game.

The ability itself is very neat though, in practice, it's only useful for oceans. The brother of the designer talked about making it +3/-3 which would help Inventrix have a better start.

Personally, I think the strenght of the Corporation is the science tag. But science is expensive and since they start with three cards instead of money they tend to suffer quite heavily. Compare to the solo game, where Inventrix is actually a great pick.


Phoblog is all-or-nothing, but I don't think it's weak or needs any fixes. I actually like the personality it gives to the Corproation.
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tamuangry wrote:
Yes, I would not mind returning to random at some point. Although, our games take 3-4 hours and I would like to spend that time with a corporation I like.

It might work for you to make your own corporations, or try out some of the other fan-made ones out there. With auctioning, you don't have to worry as much about them being balanced, so you can prioritize creating/using ones that you like.
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Bubslug wrote:
Bigb0420 wrote:
Random draw of 2 corps. You get what you get.
This...


Same here. It's up to the players to make the best of their options.
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