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Subject: Russian Hacking - the Dutch saw it first rss

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Wendell
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Click thru for article (which is in English because the Dutch are all bilingual)...
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Seems like this article is highlighting the phishing attacks that ultimately compromised Podesta's emails. Is that correct? I just want to make sure that the article isn't somehow referring to the DNC server hacks, which the DNC did not allow the FBI to investigate.

If the above is true, then are the Democrats saying that personal emails accessed by Russians through phishing attacks are what caused the election to sway? Is that the current narrative?

I only ask this because despite all the hemming and hawing on CNN, MSNBC, and other major media sources, there is not only absolutely no evidence of collusion between Russia and Trump. There isn't even a specific crime listed, just a vague notion of collusion. It's just a bunch of McCarthyism devoid of facts and the article above only confirms that high-level American politicians fell for phishing email scams.

I'm not saying that Russia isn't interested in swaying American elections, or that they didn't get access to politician's emails through phishing scams, but beyond that there isn't even probable cause to suggest that Russia worked together with Trump to sway the election for him.

Here is Luke Harding, author of the New York Times bestseller Collusion, and he can't even name a single piece of evidence in an entire thirty minute interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGSCXrlVBg

Here is a follow up link where Jimmy Dore and Aaron Mate discuss the Harding interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJDo0OSAg9s

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rutherford82 wrote:
I only ask this because despite all the hemming and hawing on CNN, MSNBC, and other major media sources, there is not only absolutely no evidence of collusion between Russia and Trump. There isn't even a specific crime listed, just a vague notion of collusion. It's just a bunch of McCarthyism


We do have Donnie Jr (lil'Donnie!) saying he was excited to receive intelligence from the Russians on Killary. And Trump announcing right before the meeting that he was going to have a big reveal on her.

Also, Trump (biggie'Donnie!) admitting to obstruction of Justice multiple times over the Comey and Flynn. Obstruction of Justice for no reason mind you, probably.

And there have been crimes committed and charges filed against key members of the Trump team. And candid admissions by Bannon (that he still hasn't refuted) about treason and money laundering.

So, yeah, if you ignore all that and all the other stuff then yeah, no collusion!

Despite the fact that D says it ten times at every interview, no one other than him has said that there is no evidence of collusion!

"We'll have to see. We'll have to see how it goes. We'll have to see."

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dkearns wrote:
We do have Donnie Jr (lil'Donnie!) saying he was excited to receive intelligence from the Russians on Killary. And Trump announcing right before the meeting that he was going to have a big reveal on her.


Unfortunately, this isn't collusion. Hillary got information from the Kremlin on Trump. If you are saying it was collusion because Hillary paid for her opposition research, but Trump didn't, then you still need evidence that some kind of transaction took place between Trump and Russia.

As far as obstruction, that still doesn't have anything to do with evidence of collusion.

You mention Bannon and treason toward the end. Are you referring to the Logan Act? I was under the assumption we had to be at war with a nation for someone to be guilty of treason.

I wouldn't doubt that there is money laundering in every corner of Washington D.C. and every corner of Trump's life, but that still isn't any evidence of collusion.

I understand how frustrating this all is, because Trump does not appear to be of high moral character, but the facts remain that there just aren't any facts.
 
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I'm betting there is a ton of evidence that we don't know about because Bob Mueller is a professional and unlike the Donald does not leak.

Just the George PapaD story is probably enough evidence of conspiracy to lock him up.

Collusion is not a thing. That is why the Donald constantly says there is none.
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rutherford82 wrote:
dkearns wrote:
We do have Donnie Jr (lil'Donnie!) saying he was excited to receive intelligence from the Russians on Killary. And Trump announcing right before the meeting that he was going to have a big reveal on her.


Unfortunately, this isn't collusion. Hillary got information from the Kremlin on Trump. If you are saying it was collusion because Hillary paid for her opposition research, but Trump didn't, then you still need evidence that some kind of transaction took place between Trump and Russia.

As far as obstruction, that still doesn't have anything to do with evidence of collusion.

You mention Bannon and treason toward the end. Are you referring to the Logan Act? I was under the assumption we had to be at war with a nation for someone to be guilty of treason.

I wouldn't doubt that there is money laundering in every corner of Washington D.C. and every corner of Trump's life, but that still isn't any evidence of collusion.

I understand how frustrating this all is, because Trump does not appear to be of high moral character, but the facts remain that there just aren't any facts.


Note, the Mueller investigation isn’t even about collusion, it is about how the Russians influenced our election.

Trump is the one who keeps saying the word collusion for some reason.

You seem a lot more frustrated than I am. I’m happy to wait and see!
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rutherford82 wrote:
dkearns wrote:
We do have Donnie Jr (lil'Donnie!) saying he was excited to receive intelligence from the Russians on Killary. And Trump announcing right before the meeting that he was going to have a big reveal on her.


Unfortunately, this isn't collusion. Hillary got information from the Kremlin on Trump. If you are saying it was collusion because Hillary paid for her opposition research, but Trump didn't, then you still need evidence that some kind of transaction took place between Trump and Russia.

As far as obstruction, that still doesn't have anything to do with evidence of collusion.

You mention Bannon and treason toward the end. Are you referring to the Logan Act? I was under the assumption we had to be at war with a nation for someone to be guilty of treason.

I wouldn't doubt that there is money laundering in every corner of Washington D.C. and every corner of Trump's life, but that still isn't any evidence of collusion.

I understand how frustrating this all is, because Trump does not appear to be of high moral character, but the facts remain that there just aren't any facts.


There is a fixation on the word "collusion" in political discourse despite the fact that collusion may have different meanings and it is FAR from the only concern which bedevils the Republic.

I suspect that Trump and his supporters have intentionally focused the public on the word "collusion" in part due to it's nebulous application so that disproving "collusion" somehow disproves all other concerns as well.

However, if you view collusion in the broadest possible terms there are at least two areas of immediate concern both past and present. During the campaign there was a striking coincidence of tempo between statements from the campaign and dissemination of illegally obtained materials. If the Russians were involved in instigating the hacks of the DNC or even of obtaining the illegally garnered data, it was clearly done with an eye to influencing our election and it appears at least on a superficial level there was a high level of coincidence if not outright coordination between the Trump campaign and those leaks to social media.

The second and more recent area of concern is a rather high coincidence of Trump attacks on our intelligence agencies and , in particular, the FBI along with yet more Russian sponsored social media attacks on that agency. It seems fairly clear that a coordinated attack on the credibility of the FBI is underway. Is it mere coincidence that, once again, Trump and the Russia's appear to be running the same playbook at the same time?

No matter what you subjectively believe, the facts on the ground support, at a minimum, a thorough investigation. The conclusion of whether or not "collusion" did take place or is taking place is an ultimate conclusion which properly belongs at the end of that investigation and not at the outset.
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rutherford82 wrote:
There isn't even a specific crime listed, just a vague notion of collusion.


Well, that's because the Mueller team is really good at what they do and don't leak. If there is some evidence of coordination, you're not going to hear about it until there's a charge brought, and that's really the way that it should be. The investigations in the House and Senate have been very hesitant to use their subpoena powers, so we really don't have anything from them.

Quote:
It's just a bunch of McCarthyism...


Seriously? I'm so tired of both sides overstating things. This is just as dumb as the people calling the President "Colluder-in-chief."

Why don't we wait for the results of an actual investigation before drawing any conclusions? There actually have been a decent number of "coincidences" where the Trump campaign did or said X and then information about X magically appeared. And a number of occasions where the campaign seemed to be aware of things that hadn't made it into the public eye yet.

We don't know. We will know more after the Mueller investigation is done (which should be fairly soon if they're looking to interview the President as reported).
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perfalbion wrote:
[q="rutherford82"]
Quote:
It's just a bunch of McCarthyism...


Seriously? I'm so tired of both sides overstating things. This is just as dumb as the people calling the President "Colluder-in-chief."


Well I'm not sure what you call it when all of the mainstream news outlets are pushing a narrative that Russia is the reason for America's failed political system. This has been a daily story for about a year straight now with no formal charges brought.

Did Russia refuse to give Americans single payer health care? Did Russia kick 200,000 progressive voters in New York off of the rolls during the primaries? Did Russia unanimously approve a $70 billion war budget bonus in America with no debate or discussion (this is as large as Russia's entire military budget and it could have funded free public higher education, by the way)? Did Russia convince all the Democrats to not stand their ground on DACA when they could have forced Republicans to concede in order to approve a federal budget? Did Russia convince the Obama administration to keep consultants on payroll for the DNC in off years, effectively bankrupting the DNC?

If blaming Russia for all the bad things in American politics isn't some twisted form of neoMcCarthyism, then I'm not sure what you would call it. I guess gaslighting would fit.

 
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So what you’re saying is that this is all a witch hunt conspiracy perpetrated at the highest levels by the dirty Dems (you lost! Get over it!), the lame stream media, and the suddenly nefarious and yet strangely predominantly republican FBI.

Oh yeah and also all of the intelligence agencies of our once close allies.

Hmmmm, yeah. Sounds right.
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dkearns wrote:
So what you’re saying is that this is all a witch hunt perpetrated at the highest levels by the dirty Dems, the lame stream media, and the suddenly nefarious FBI.

Oh yeah and also all of the intelligence agencies of our once close allies.

Hmmmm, yeah. Sounds right.


Well none of them prosecuted Clapper, so no, I don't give them complicit approval or the benefit of the doubt. Also see the long list of countries the CIA has orchestrated coups in. I am supposed to not question the motives and just agree with all of that? No thanks.

I hate Trump. He is awful beyond comprehension as a person and even worse as the American president. I would much rather we go after him for not fully divesting from his companies (giving them to his family does not count). At least you might find something tangible in all of that.
 
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rutherford82 wrote:


all of the mainstream news outlets are pushing a narrative that Russia is the reason for America's failed political system.



Hyperbole much? ALL of mainstream media? Russia is THE reason for our "failed" political system?

Who has said the political system has failed in toto?

Who is ALL of the mainstream media? Does that include Fox? Because Fox and MSNBC are just opposite sides of the same coin and they are either both mainstream or both not mainstream.

The primary narrative appears to be that Russia took concrete steps to influence our election in 2016 (which is consistent with actions they've taken in other countries) and that an investigation is appropriate to determine whether there was an effort by members of the Trump campaign to cooperate in that effort.

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Rulesjd wrote:
rutherford82 wrote:


all of the mainstream news outlets are pushing a narrative that Russia is the reason for America's failed political system.



Hyperbole much? ALL of mainstream media? Russia is THE reason for our "failed" political system?

Who has said the political system has failed in toto?

Who is ALL of the mainstream media? Does that include Fox? Because Fox and MSNBC are just opposite sides of the same coin and they are either both mainstream or both not mainstream.

The primary narrative appears to be that Russia took concrete steps to influence our election in 2016 (which is consistent with actions they've taken in other countries) and that an investigation is appropriate to determine whether there was an effort by members of the Trump campaign to cooperate in that effort.


I guess I should have reworded that differently. Considering most people don't count Fox as credible, I could have mentioned leftist media. I am trying to not make this a partisan issue where we either only pile on Trump or only pile on Clinton, but you are correct that my hyperbole is inaccurate.

If you ask me, a political system that could elevate such a flawed person to the most powerful office in the world is a failed political system.

As a news agency, pushing a story about Russian hackers for over a year while largely ignoring that there were clearly polls during the primaries indicating that Bernie would beat Trump, whereas Clinton might not, is not objective in the slightest. Refusing to dive deeper into those types of policy-based issues in favor of a Russian bogeyman for a straight year is McCarthyism, plain and simple.

When you go back to the polls next, you won't be picking a Democrat based on policy, you'll be voting for them out of fear of Russia. And while the media (left or right) is able to get you to vote with your emotions and not with rationale, well it's not difficult to envision that whichever candidate you pick is not going to need to give you any good policies in order to get or keep your vote. They just need a better propaganda team than the other side.
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Leftist media isn’t a thing.

theres CNN, NYT, WaPo, BBC, WSJ, and many other outlets reporting the same things.

Then there’s Fox News.

I’ll be voting for a Democrat because I hate everything Republicans stand for (Bernie supporter but I’m not bawling about it).
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rutherford82 wrote:


When you go back to the polls next, you won't be picking a Democrat based on policy, you'll be voting for them out of fear of Russia. And while the media (left or right) is able to get you to vote with your emotions and not with rationale, well it's not difficult to envision that whichever candidate you pick is not going to need to give you any good policies in order to get or keep your vote. They just need a better propaganda team than the other side.


No, I'll vote (D) based on policy. If the president were Rubio or Walker or one of those other shitty garden-variety Republicans, I'd be opposed to their policies but no more than I was with Bush. And I would necessarily have cause to assume they were corrupt or anything else - just that their policies are stupid and serve the plutocrats (a point they share with Trump, who after all is a plutocrat).

No, what worries me as a loyal American is the extent to which one candidate seemed willing to take help from a foreign power - one not particularly friendly to the United States' interests. And now, what worries me as a loyal American is the extent the GOP appears to be putting party ahead of country by obscuring and interfering in the Mueller investigation into Russian meddling, all in the service of a cult of personality around Donald Trump, somebody the GOP didn't even want as its nominee and in the end, somebody who doesn't give a shit about the Republican Party or the good of the United States or anything else beyond lining his pockets - oh, and possibly about fucking porn stars.
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dkearns wrote:
theres CNN, NYT, WaPo, BBC, WSJ, and many other outlets reporting the same things.


Just because major media sources are largely credible doesn't mean everything they report is accurate. Remember during the first Gulf War when they all reported that girl who said she saw Iraqis take babies out of incubators and leave them on the floor to die? That has been proven a lie and it was probably the main moment that solidified American support for that illegal war.

Also, in order to get the best picture of current events, you should be looking for many diverse outlets to get your news. Four of the five outlets you mentioned likely all have the same interests, at least with regards to state. You are insulting me for not blindly consuming western narratives and it also appears you have something against thinking critically about what news outlets support.

Remember, the BBC covered up Jimmy Saville for decades, the WSJ never made a push for prosecutions after the housing bubble fraud of 2007-2008, and CNN, the NYT, and WaPo all support the numerous illegal wars our country has instigated and is currently engaged in. Pardon me for taking their reporting with a grain of salt.



 
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rutherford82 wrote:
dkearns wrote:
theres CNN, NYT, WaPo, BBC, WSJ, and many other outlets reporting the same things.


Just because major media sources are largely credible doesn't mean everything they report is accurate. Remember during the first Gulf War when they all reported that girl who said she saw Iraqis take babies out of incubators and leave them on the floor to die? That has been proven a lie and it was probably the main moment that solidified American support for that illegal war.

Also, in order to get the best picture of current events, you should be looking for many diverse outlets to get your news. Four of the five outlets you mentioned likely all have the same interests, at least with regards to state. You are insulting me for not blindly consuming western narratives and it also appears you have something against thinking critically about what news outlets support.

Remember, the BBC covered up Jimmy Saville for decades, the WSJ never made a push for prosecutions after the housing bubble fraud of 2007-2008, and CNN, the NYT, and WaPo all support the numerous illegal wars our country has instigated and is currently engaged in. Pardon me for taking their reporting with a grain of salt.


No one said they don’t make mistakes. Not sure where that came from.

What are the main interests that differentiate the worlds news agencies from Fox News?

Out of curiosity, where do you get your news? (I get most of mine from NPR)
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dkearns wrote:
rutherford82 wrote:
dkearns wrote:
theres CNN, NYT, WaPo, BBC, WSJ, and many other outlets reporting the same things.


Just because major media sources are largely credible doesn't mean everything they report is accurate. Remember during the first Gulf War when they all reported that girl who said she saw Iraqis take babies out of incubators and leave them on the floor to die? That has been proven a lie and it was probably the main moment that solidified American support for that illegal war.

Also, in order to get the best picture of current events, you should be looking for many diverse outlets to get your news. Four of the five outlets you mentioned likely all have the same interests, at least with regards to state. You are insulting me for not blindly consuming western narratives and it also appears you have something against thinking critically about what news outlets support.

Remember, the BBC covered up Jimmy Saville for decades, the WSJ never made a push for prosecutions after the housing bubble fraud of 2007-2008, and CNN, the NYT, and WaPo all support the numerous illegal wars our country has instigated and is currently engaged in. Pardon me for taking their reporting with a grain of salt.


Out of curiosity, where do you get your news? (I get most of mine from NPR)


NPR is fine and they are great at making high quality pieces, but they are underwritten by oil and gas companies, as well as DuPont.

I try to diversify my news consumption, but I don't read or watch news as much as I used to.

There's some French channel on my cable I like to watch for world news that doesn't get reported much on American channels. I think it's FN24, I forget the name. I also try to read Al Jazeera for middle east stuff. I do enjoy Rising Up With Sonali and I also like Juan Gonzalez from Democracy Now, but ever since Amy Goodman lied about being at Building 7 when it collapsed, I don't pay her much mind.

As of late, I don't follow print news as much as I should, but I used to read the New York Times. I also used to force myself to look at The Federalist in college, but that was quite a while ago.
 
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rutherford82 wrote:
Well I'm not sure what you call it when all of the mainstream news outlets are pushing a narrative that Russia is the reason for America's failed political system. This has been a daily story for about a year straight now with no formal charges brought.


I don't know what media outlets you're referring to, but none of the responsible ones do anything of the sort.

Quote:
If blaming Russia for all the bad things in American politics isn't some twisted form of neoMcCarthyism, then I'm not sure what you would call it. I guess gaslighting would fit.


Your presentation is just as twisted as you're claiming the mainstream media or the Democrats presentation is. Is there a point to bothering to continue a conversation?
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perfalbion wrote:
Is there a point to bothering to continue a conversation?


I guess if your endgame is to not get affordable healthcare, not reform the voting system, not have affordable education, continue to erode the working class, and to continue to conduct illegal wars ad infinitum, then no, there isn't a point continuing the conversation.




 
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rutherford82 wrote:
. . . . but ever since Amy Goodman lied about being at Building 7 when it collapsed, I don't pay her much mind.

I'm not familiar with this story. This doesn't mean you're a 9/11 truther does it?
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Erik17 wrote:
rutherford82 wrote:
. . . . but ever since Amy Goodman lied about being at Building 7 when it collapsed, I don't pay her much mind.

I'm not familiar with this story. This doesn't mean you're a 9/11 truther does it?


9/11 was a very tragic day for all the victims in the planes and buildings, and especially for the first responders and all the middle easterners in the following years whose suffering continues today because of it.

I believe the NIST report is fraudulent science and should not be accepted.

I believe we were wrong to blame Osama Bin Laden and invade Iraq after the events when it was purported that most of the terrorists were Saudis.

I believe that anyone who would buy two aging skyscrapers that were still so full of asbestos that the cleanup bill was more than what it would have cost to build new towers was either the worst business person in history, or they knew something that the rest of us didn't.

I believe that when John Skilling (chief structural engineering of WTC 1 and 2) said the buildings were engineered to withstand an impact by a large airplane and would remain standing even in the event of a terrible fire, that he was indeed correct.

I believe a true pancake collapse would have registered on the Richter scale much the way stadium demolitions do.

I believe in Newtonian physics, especially the third law of motion, which could never explain how both WTC 1 and 2 were symmetrically demolished based on the given observations of that day.

I believe Norman Mineta was telling the truth in his testimony about the events of the day.

I'm not sure if any of this resonates with your beliefs as to what a "truther" might believe, but I feel these are pretty basic questions that the official narrative refuses to answer. Given the historical trend of America entering wars based on similar scenarios (WWII and Vietnam), I don't think it's unreasonable at all to question the truth that day.
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rutherford82 wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
Is there a point to bothering to continue a conversation?


I guess if your endgame is to not get affordable healthcare, not reform the voting system, not have affordable education, continue to erode the working class, and to continue to conduct illegal wars ad infinitum, then no, there isn't a point continuing the conversation.


You appear to have written off anyone who isn't you, so what my endgame is doesn't seem to matter.
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rutherford82 wrote:
I believe the NIST report is fraudulent science and should not be accepted.


Aaaaahhhhh. So there really isn't a point in conversing with you. Got it.
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perfalbion wrote:
rutherford82 wrote:
I believe the NIST report is fraudulent science and should not be accepted.


Aaaaahhhhh. So there really isn't a point in conversing with you. Got it.


Well any scientific report that isn't peer reviewed has no credibility. Intentionally not releasing data while pushing a report as true is fraudulent science.

Are you a creationist? Is that why you would end a conversation over questioning a science paper that is not peer reviewed? I don't really care if that's the reason, I'm just curious if what you quoted from my post was the main part that turned you off.

And for the previous comment, you are welcome to stop replying whenever it suits you, but I appreciate your input and I hope we can agree on some topics in the future.
 
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