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Subject: Some Variant ideas- Constructive opinions please rss

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Bruce Gazdecki
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I had some ideas and before taking the time to try them out wanted to see if people thought they were worth trying out.

1.) Monster movement

-While the current system is fine, I would prefer that it wasn't tied to the Agenda cards, since as players get more agenda cards, you lose some of the monster movement options.

*My proposal is to simply make a monster activation deck. You would just make new cards that mimic the player count and monster activations of the agenda cards. When the deck runs out and you need to reshuffle, each Survivor takes 1 HP damage and 1 Radiation point, except for the Ghoul who simply takes 2 HP damage. There might need to be an increase as time goes on to "push" the game towards a conclusion.

*Maybe HP's only, since it's harder to cure rads? Do a progression (1, 2, 3, etc...)?


2.) Faction chart

-Again, while the current system works, it doesn't make "sense" that the factions would progress down the track when their corresponding quests aren't being performed.

*My idea is to keep the end game mechanism where once a Faction reaches the bottom, the game ends. However, it no longer advances due to the deck needing to be reshuffled, only when quest rewards indicate as such. This would represent the Faction getting stronger as their quests are being done.

(Only thing I have to check is if the quests give sufficient movement to finish them without any end of round help.)

3.) Agenda cards

-Not sure the system really works. Plus starting with a faction card doesn't make sense, as most PC wouldn't even know who half of them are potentially.

*My idea is to change the agenda system. You only would get a Faction agenda card if you complete a Faction quest (even if the rewards don't call for it). If a non-faction quest offers an agenda reward, you would pick from the stack of non-Faction agenda cards.

4.) Scoring

-Obviously, if you make the above changes, the current scoring system doesn't work anymore.

*Some ideas
-Faction Agendas - Score 1 point for each card, a bonus point for each card if that Factions "wins"

-Non-Faction agenda cards - Score as normal

-SPECIAL tokens - Score 1 point if you have 5, 2 if you have 6, 4 if you have all 7.

-Perk cards - 1 point for each unused Perk card

-Coins - 1 point for every 4 coins - Score only if you could take a shop action on your "Next Turn" without the use of Perk Cards. (You are not allowed though to sell any items to gain more coins)

-Unqiue items - 1 point for each Unique Item you have (Alien Blaster, Dogmeat, etc...)

-Tokens
* +1 for Idolized, Well Rested
* -1 for Vilified, Addicted

Please try to be constructive. Thanks.

 
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Aaron Day
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1) It would be very unlikely for a single monster type to be noticeably affected by the removal of Agenda cards. Also, taking damage when the Activation deck runs out is just costing each player a single action, which is more annoying than meaningful.

2) While it is possible for the game to end without faction tokens moving down the track, this movement is the game's sole pacing mechanic and, without it, it would be impossible to lose.

3) If you a specific faction Agenda card upon completing a quest for that faction, you would always win as it only requires four quest completions to end the game and whoever did the quests would have four faction specific Agenda cards at that time.

4) I've never been a fan of the suggestions that Caps result in victory points, as this simply encourages players to horde money. It would make more sense to gain VP for having weapons, armor, and companions.
 
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Brett Miller
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Bruiser419 wrote:
I had some ideas and before taking the time to try them out wanted to see if people thought they were worth trying out.

1.) Monster movement

-While the current system is fine, I would prefer that it wasn't tied to the Agenda cards, since as players get more agenda cards, you lose some of the monster movement options.

*My proposal is to simply make a monster activation deck. You would just make new cards that mimic the player count and monster activations of the agenda cards. When the deck runs out and you need to reshuffle, each Survivor takes 1 HP damage and 1 Radiation point, except for the Ghoul who simply takes 2 HP damage. There might need to be an increase as time goes on to "push" the game towards a conclusion.

*Maybe HP's only, since it's harder to cure rads? Do a progression (1, 2, 3, etc...)?


2.) Faction chart

-Again, while the current system works, it doesn't make "sense" that the factions would progress down the track when their corresponding quests aren't being performed.

*My idea is to keep the end game mechanism where once a Faction reaches the bottom, the game ends. However, it no longer advances due to the deck needing to be reshuffled, only when quest rewards indicate as such. This would represent the Faction getting stronger as their quests are being done.

(Only thing I have to check is if the quests give sufficient movement to finish them without any end of round help.)

3.) Agenda cards

-Not sure the system really works. Plus starting with a faction card doesn't make sense, as most PC wouldn't even know who half of them are potentially.

*My idea is to change the agenda system. You only would get a Faction agenda card if you complete a Faction quest (even if the rewards don't call for it). If a non-faction quest offers an agenda reward, you would pick from the stack of non-Faction agenda cards.

4.) Scoring

-Obviously, if you make the above changes, the current scoring system doesn't work anymore.

*Some ideas
-Faction Agendas - Score 1 point for each card, a bonus point for each card if that Factions "wins"

-Non-Faction agenda cards - Score as normal

-SPECIAL tokens - Score 1 point if you have 5, 2 if you have 6, 4 if you have all 7.

-Perk cards - 1 point for each unused Perk card

-Coins - 1 point for every 4 coins - Score only if you could take a shop action on your "Next Turn" without the use of Perk Cards. (You are not allowed though to sell any items to gain more coins)

-Unqiue items - 1 point for each Unique Item you have (Alien Blaster, Dogmeat, etc...)

-Tokens
* +1 for Idolized, Well Rested
* -1 for Vilified, Addicted

Please try to be constructive. Thanks.



Hey!

Some interesting ideas here. I have my own thoughts/variants and I was thinking of making my own post for them but I figured I would discuss with you!

1) Is not really a problem IMO. I don't mind double dipping into the component here. My bigger problem with monsters is the fiddliness of keeping track of where they came from when you kill them. I have considered that, instead of replacing them on their spawn points when they are killed, when the corresponding icon is turned over, if a spawn point is empty, THEN you put a face-down monster on that spawn point and NOT when monsters are killed. I have not play tested this yet though, it could have some problem I think. Perhaps too many monsters? Not enough tokens? It probably wouldn't work well with vanilla rules because it would lead to a lot more high-level monsters, but I play with a couple other house rules that speed up early levels and caps so it may work in that context.

2) This isn't a problem IMO. I wouldn't overthink how much sense it makes - I think it's a necessary game timer. If you remove this then I think the game loses a lot of tension.

3) The vanilla Agenda card system does not work. I agree on this point. I am on the same page that the top-decking of agenda cards is an issue, and players should have some choice. However, I think there are problems with your proposed solution: specifically that it is guaranteed to make the game shorter. Normally I don't consider this a problem, but in the case of Fallout where it's hard enough to get through the main quest cards, I think we don't want to shorten the game length.

I have a different solution. At the beginning, players draw two cards, keep one and discard one (I realize that this shortens the first tie through the agenda deck - I consider this to be an improvement as well). Then, when players get to draw agenda cards in the future, they draw one off the top of the deck and can either keep it or exchange it with a faction card in the discard pile (and only a faction card and not another agenda card). Finally, and I think this is important, for faction cards, only the first one gives you the base +1 influence and the others only give you the additional influence, if this makes sense? IMO this fixes a game length variability problem and reduces the dominance of going all in for one faction, especially if you can pick them out of the discard pile.

I ALSO make an additional change to faction cards. The bonus influence is +1 for any amount of difference between the factions and hte other +1 is for the faction entering the orange space on the track. This fixes a variety of problems in the vanilla rules. Also, I did not invent this but found it in these forums, somewhere, and this is a great change IMO.

4) I am not a fan of making scoring fiddilier than it alrady is. So, with my above varaint, I don't think that any additional changes need to be make to the influence point system. I agree with Aaron, point-salading things like caps is a mistake IMO becuase caps should remain instramentally valueable and not a stragety to win (see Clank for an example of the problem with making money worth points). This is a personal conviction about games in general.
 
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Bruce Gazdecki
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galaxybear wrote:
Bruiser419 wrote:
I had some ideas and before taking the time to try them out wanted to see if people thought they were worth trying out.

1.) Monster movement

-While the current system is fine, I would prefer that it wasn't tied to the Agenda cards, since as players get more agenda cards, you lose some of the monster movement options.

*My proposal is to simply make a monster activation deck. You would just make new cards that mimic the player count and monster activations of the agenda cards. When the deck runs out and you need to reshuffle, each Survivor takes 1 HP damage and 1 Radiation point, except for the Ghoul who simply takes 2 HP damage. There might need to be an increase as time goes on to "push" the game towards a conclusion.

*Maybe HP's only, since it's harder to cure rads? Do a progression (1, 2, 3, etc...)?


2.) Faction chart

-Again, while the current system works, it doesn't make "sense" that the factions would progress down the track when their corresponding quests aren't being performed.

*My idea is to keep the end game mechanism where once a Faction reaches the bottom, the game ends. However, it no longer advances due to the deck needing to be reshuffled, only when quest rewards indicate as such. This would represent the Faction getting stronger as their quests are being done.

(Only thing I have to check is if the quests give sufficient movement to finish them without any end of round help.)

3.) Agenda cards

-Not sure the system really works. Plus starting with a faction card doesn't make sense, as most PC wouldn't even know who half of them are potentially.

*My idea is to change the agenda system. You only would get a Faction agenda card if you complete a Faction quest (even if the rewards don't call for it). If a non-faction quest offers an agenda reward, you would pick from the stack of non-Faction agenda cards.

4.) Scoring

-Obviously, if you make the above changes, the current scoring system doesn't work anymore.

*Some ideas
-Faction Agendas - Score 1 point for each card, a bonus point for each card if that Factions "wins"

-Non-Faction agenda cards - Score as normal

-SPECIAL tokens - Score 1 point if you have 5, 2 if you have 6, 4 if you have all 7.

-Perk cards - 1 point for each unused Perk card

-Coins - 1 point for every 4 coins - Score only if you could take a shop action on your "Next Turn" without the use of Perk Cards. (You are not allowed though to sell any items to gain more coins)

-Unqiue items - 1 point for each Unique Item you have (Alien Blaster, Dogmeat, etc...)

-Tokens
* +1 for Idolized, Well Rested
* -1 for Vilified, Addicted

Please try to be constructive. Thanks.



Hey!

Some interesting ideas here. I have my own thoughts/variants and I was thinking of making my own post for them but I figured I would discuss with you!

1) Is not really a problem IMO. I don't mind double dipping into the component here. My bigger problem with monsters is the fiddliness of keeping track of where they came from when you kill them. I have considered that, instead of replacing them on their spawn points when they are killed, when the corresponding icon is turned over, if a spawn point is empty, THEN you put a face-down monster on that spawn point and NOT when monsters are killed. I have not play tested this yet though, it could have some problem I think. Perhaps too many monsters? Not enough tokens? It probably wouldn't work well with vanilla rules because it would lead to a lot more high-level monsters, but I play with a couple other house rules that speed up early levels and caps so it may work in that context.

2) This isn't a problem IMO. I wouldn't overthink how much sense it makes - I think it's a necessary game timer. If you remove this then I think the game loses a lot of tension.

3) The vanilla Agenda card system does not work. I agree on this point. I am on the same page that the top-decking of agenda cards is an issue, and players should have some choice. However, I think there are problems with your proposed solution: specifically that it is guaranteed to make the game shorter. Normally I don't consider this a problem, but in the case of Fallout where it's hard enough to get through the main quest cards, I think we don't want to shorten the game length.

I have a different solution. At the beginning, players draw two cards, keep one and discard one (I realize that this shortens the first tie through the agenda deck - I consider this to be an improvement as well). Then, when players get to draw agenda cards in the future, they draw one off the top of the deck and can either keep it or exchange it with a faction card in the discard pile (and only a faction card and not another agenda card). Finally, and I think this is important, for faction cards, only the first one gives you the base +1 influence and the others only give you the additional influence, if this makes sense? IMO this fixes a game length variability problem and reduces the dominance of going all in for one faction, especially if you can pick them out of the discard pile.

I ALSO make an additional change to faction cards. The bonus influence is +1 for any amount of difference between the factions and hte other +1 is for the faction entering the orange space on the track. This fixes a variety of problems in the vanilla rules. Also, I did not invent this but found it in these forums, somewhere, and this is a great change IMO.

4) I am not a fan of making scoring fiddilier than it alrady is. So, with my above varaint, I don't think that any additional changes need to be make to the influence point system. I agree with Aaron, point-salading things like caps is a mistake IMO becuase caps should remain instramentally valueable and not a stragety to win (see Clank for an example of the problem with making money worth points). This is a personal conviction about games in general.


1.) Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the 1st part, as I do think it's a problem. It's quite possible that you could remove the 3 monster icons and then not activate any deathclaws. That would potentially make the game easier depending on their location, and once you killed them, they would never return.

As for your idea, it has some merit, but I guess my thought is that it would reintroduce monsters back into the game too slowly, as now it would take two turns just to get them able to move vs. 1. Also, would you place a token on each icon space, or just one? There already seems to be a potential issue of too many monsters on the board (at least at 1 player, maybe it's not as big an issue at higher player counts) And then who do you place it near, the person who's turn it is, or whose turn it's going to be? I think the monster placement system works ok.

2 and 3.) I can see your point about making the game shorter, as now people might just go for the main quest and ignore everything else. But I still feel like there has to be a better way to keep the game moving and keep the tension while removing it from the faction table. The Security (or Freedom) faction shouldn't get stronger just because they're weaker. I'll have to give this one some more thought.

4.) I see your point, and I do believe with your ideas the normal scoring system works. But if you change the way the faction table works, you have to change the scoring, since you aren't moving the other faction up every time you go thru the deck, and the separation scoring would be way too unbalanced). The current scoring works as is only because you increase the other faction when it's behind. I have no issue with removing the coins as points and using them maybe as a tiebreaker.
I also think adding points for the tokens adds some additional, albeit minor, choices. Do I use Well-Rested for that extra hit, or try to keep it for the point. Do I take the good option and less rewards now for a point, or take the goods now at a cost of losing a point.
 
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Bruce Gazdecki
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Hedgehobbit wrote:
1) It would be very unlikely for a single monster type to be noticeably affected by the removal of Agenda cards. Also, taking damage when the Activation deck runs out is just costing each player a single action, which is more annoying than meaningful.

2) While it is possible for the game to end without faction tokens moving down the track, this movement is the game's sole pacing mechanic and, without it, it would be impossible to lose.

3) If you a specific faction Agenda card upon completing a quest for that faction, you would always win as it only requires four quest completions to end the game and whoever did the quests would have four faction specific Agenda cards at that time.

4) I've never been a fan of the suggestions that Caps result in victory points, as this simply encourages players to horde money. It would make more sense to gain VP for having weapons, armor, and companions.


1.) Ok, so I counted the icons on the 1P agenda cards, and each icon is represented 3 times in 11 cards. So I think it's very possible that 1 could remove all 3 of those tokens and prevent a group of activating for the rest of the game. It just becomes a question of how quick it can happen.

As for the damage, I was trying to come up with a way to move the game, and why I said it might need to be increased every time you go thru the deck. Still thinking on this one though.

2.) I'm not sure what you mean by "impossible to lose". If you mean the game winning, people will still say whoever had the most VP "won" so that's moot in my opinion. Plus the video game doesn't "end" arbitrarily, as you need to move the quests along.

3.) Anyone can get faction cards, so if the other players allow one person to finish all the quests and get all the cards of the winning faction, that's kinda on them. I'm trying to tie quest movement to gaining points since you're helping them.

4.) The coin thing is iffy for me to, which is why I put the "need to be able to shop on next turn" stipulation.
I don't like VP for armor, weapons, companions because you already get VP from quests, agendas, SPECIAL tokens, etc... as those things help you be successful in those areas, so it'd almost be like getting double points for them,
I only give VP to the unique items because they are harder to get and likely gotten later in the game.
 
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Chris Cameron
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Nice suggestions.

I actually posted something last night regarding a new scoring system for quest progression based on how many you advance.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1928713/reinventing-scoring...
 
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Brett Miller
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Bruiser419 wrote:


1.) Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the 1st part, as I do think it's a problem. It's quite possible that you could remove the 3 monster icons and then not activate any deathclaws. That would potentially make the game easier depending on their location, and once you killed them, they would never return.

As for your idea, it has some merit, but I guess my thought is that it would reintroduce monsters back into the game too slowly, as now it would take two turns just to get them able to move vs. 1. Also, would you place a token on each icon space, or just one? There already seems to be a potential issue of too many monsters on the board (at least at 1 player, maybe it's not as big an issue at higher player counts) And then who do you place it near, the person who's turn it is, or whose turn it's going to be? I think the monster placement system works ok.

2 and 3.) I can see your point about making the game shorter, as now people might just go for the main quest and ignore everything else. But I still feel like there has to be a better way to keep the game moving and keep the tension while removing it from the faction table. The Security (or Freedom) faction shouldn't get stronger just because they're weaker. I'll have to give this one some more thought.

4.) I see your point, and I do believe with your ideas the normal scoring system works. But if you change the way the faction table works, you have to change the scoring, since you aren't moving the other faction up every time you go thru the deck, and the separation scoring would be way too unbalanced). The current scoring works as is only because you increase the other faction when it's behind. I have no issue with removing the coins as points and using them maybe as a tiebreaker.
I also think adding points for the tokens adds some additional, albeit minor, choices. Do I use Well-Rested for that extra hit, or try to keep it for the point. Do I take the good option and less rewards now for a point, or take the goods now at a cost of losing a point.


1) I see your point. I hadn't counted out the icons. Although I see this as not likely I do agree that this is a problem. Realy, if there are only 3 of a type, even removing one seems like a problem proportionally. You're right. I guess I am resistant to changing this because I don't want to have to make a deck of cards laugh But it's definitely something to consider...

As to my (still untried) idea, some monsters (such as the deathclaw type monsters) would probably come out too slowly... but I think this could be addressed if I did make a monster activation deck that maybe spread out the monster types a bit better. For the monsters that are well represented on agenda cards the "two activation thing" wouldn't really make them come out any slower because they would probably spawn before the first monster even died, so it would either wash out or there would be even more of a particular monster type on the board.

I don't know what you mean about "who do you place it near" though... you just place it on it's icon on the board if it's icon is empty. There would be nothing subjective about it and it's a lot less annoying IMO then trying to remember which raider originated at which skull 4 turns after it entered the board. This is by far my least favorite hosuekeeping chore in this game. But I think there are issues with my "fix" and the vanilla rules are probalby better.

2/3

Yeah I see what you mean from a thematic standpoint, I just like the timed element from a mechanical standpoint.

4

I agree that with your variant you need a different scoring mechanism. I think I tend to favor changes that are as minimal as possible and won't require additonal player aids or materials. But I see your point.

Let me know how the varaint works!

-Brett
 
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