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Subject: Scottish belief and diplomatic status rss

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Hey there folks!

Would have a somewhat specific question regarding the Scottish diplomatic status resolution.

As stated in Rule 24.6 (section 2)

Quote:
2. Roll Dice: Each competing major power rolls a single die
and computes a final total by adding their influence points (if
any) with the target power to the roll of the die. France adds 2
to their roll if evaluating Scotland when 3 Scottish home spaces
are under Catholic religious influence; the Protestant adds 2 to
their roll if evaluating Scotland when 3 Scottish home spaces
are under Protestant religious influence.


Question is... spaces in unrest, do they still count to whoever is trying to achieve the 3 spaces bonus? I would think so...

All relevant rules I could gather:

The base unrest rules, effects of unrest Rule 12.4 , if this is to be taken as the gold standard... no mention here

Quote:
Effects:
• Units may not use spring deployment, retreat, or avoid battle
into or through a space in unrest.
• No LOC can be traced through a space in unrest.
• No units may be constructed in a space in unrest.
• A Protestant Conversion attempt may not be initiated against
an adjacent space if a space in unrest is the only space under
Protestant religious influence adjacent to that target space.
• A Catholic Conversion attempt may not be initiated against
an adjacent space if a space in unrest is the only space under
Catholic religious influence adjacent to that target space.
• The space is not considered to be Protestant when computing
victory points (VP).
• A key in unrest is not credited when tracking the number of VP
earned and cards to draw. Place an additional Unrest marker on
one key box of the affected power’s card for each key under
unrest. Remove these markers when the unrest is removed from
that key.
• A fortress in unrest does not roll a die against a piracy attempt
in an adjacent sea zone.
Spaces under unrest may be the target of Protestant and Catholic
Conversion attempts or Rebellions.


Argument in favor: core presence, example of unrest not mattering. Rule 18.1

Quote:
Core Presence
During the course of the game, the religious influence of spaces in
each of the four religious struggle areas will swing back and forth
between Catholic and Protestant. However, under no circumstances
can any action or event ever remove the final Catholic space or the
final Protestant space from one of these areas. If resolution of an
event or action would normally cause this final space to change
influence, this flip is dropped. Events and actions may not be initiated
that generate conversion attempts if no spaces may be flipped
by those attempts due to this core presence rule. A space in unrest
can be counted as the final space of a particular religion in an area


Argument in favour: During a rebellion, adjacent spaces may switch side, unrest does not matter here either. Rule: 18.5 > Rebellion Procedure > Section 4 Control Spaces

Quote:
4. Control Spaces: Switch the political control of the target space
to Protestant political control. Additional spaces adjacent to the
target space and in the same religious struggle area may also be
switched to Protestant political control if they are free of Catholic
units and meet the same four criteria listed in Step 1 (it states: but it may be in unrest). However the total number of spaces flipped in this step may never exceed the
number of CP spent on this action. Any units that are in these spaces
and are not controlled by the Protestant are displaced.


Argument against: a space with unrest is not valid to influence other locations when trying to convert other spaces. Rule 18.5

Quote:

b) The space is adjacent to a space under Protestant religious
influence (even if across a pass) or is a port connected to a sea
zone that contains other ports under Protestant religious influence.
The adjacent space or port may not be in unrest and must
have been Protestant at the start of this step of the procedure.


Argument against: spaces with unrest do not count towards the number of spaces under protestant control for the victory point calculation 25.2

Quote:

Protestant Spaces
Four powers gain special VP based on the number of spaces under
Protestant religious influence in the four religious struggle areas.
Adjust the Protestant Spaces marker on the Protestant Spaces
Track on the Religious Struggle Card whenever an action or event
causes the number of spaces under Protestant influence to go up or
down. Spaces in unrest are never included in the count of Protestant
spaces. Based on the row in which the marker resides, players can
read over to the right along that row to determine the current VP
count for Spain, England and Protestants from the current religious
situation.


Any thoughts?
 
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Dave Rubin
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12.4 IS the gold standard.
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Michael Kiefte
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Your argumentation is way too complicated.

24.6 says nothing about unrest. Therefore, unrest is not relevant.
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Rob Davidson
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mkiefte wrote:
Your argumentation is way too complicated.

24.6 says nothing about unrest. Therefore, unrest is not relevant.


Mike,

I have to disagree here; while the section on this in 24.6 might be silent on unrest specifically I think that for the following reasons it is relevant:

1. There is a dichotomy that presents itself where throughout the rules spaces in unrest have been deemed to not qualify as 'existing' due to unrest. Examples are Protestant space count, Paris VP, Central Europe VP, and Military Victory keys. In all these situations, unrest is deemed to either prevent the gain of VP counters or the ability to 'claim' a win (due to 50+ spaces or placement of ALL a power's SCM's). But here, due to unrest not being SPECIFICALLY mentioned in 24.6, you're deeming that a space in unrest is as good as a non-unrest space in order to gain a significant die roll modifier to help convert the control of Scotland.

2. Another dichotomy would be under the situation where 'Scottish Lords Rebel' is played; let us say that Edinburgh is in unrest and is FR; additionally, the FR have 2 other Catholic spaces in Scotland. I don't see how the FR could claim a net +3 modifier here; but based on your statement they could....they 'control' Edinburgh...but it's in unrest...even though at this point in time they don't get credit for it as a key..nor can build units there...nor expand Catholic religion from that point...

So, in the end, I hold that here in the case of die roll modifiers for control of Scotland that unrest would negate the ability for a power to claim a + modifier to their die roll. Claiming a '+' in this situation seems counter-intuitive and incorrect.
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John Nestor
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I respectfully disagree.

In all of the cases mentioned, the rules explicitly state the specific consequence of the unrest in the space. In the case of diplomatic modifiers for Scotland, no explicit mention is made of a negative consequence of unrest. So none should be assumed.

For example, Protestant rebellions can target spaces under Protestant religious influence even if those spaces are in unrest. On the other hand, a Spanish Catholic rebellion in England can NOT target a space under Catholic religious influence that is in unrest. Huguenot spaces in France in unrest count for Protestant political control in the Catholic League formation check.

These examples tell me that unrest does not cancel the fact that a space is under a particular religious influence. Nor does unrest cancel space control. The converse assumption absent an explicit rules reference is pure speculation.
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I share the view that a huge advantage is at stake here, that +2 is no small bump to achieve control in Scotland.

It is true... the rules do not specifically state it, so in any game this issue were to arise, unless an agreement among players is reached, it would have to be ruled as stated in the rules, which by absence give way to allowing to claim the +2 even with unrest present.

More than speculation, the question was to gauge the general opinion, whether this might warrant enquiring GMT for some ruling from an errata point of view, might be something not fully considered by the designer.

That being said... the faction that benefits the most here I'd say is the Protestant, gaining a bloodless foothold in a "outside Netherlands" key space allows to get the needed card boost for their card income.
It is also the only diplomatic battlefield for Protestand (aside from a under 6 player game)
I'd think it would be quite unfortunate for the Protestand to go for some religious conversion in Scotland, and have to put a space under unrest. The controlling player (France at the start) would be wise not to calm the unrest, leaving him with the sole +1 for control of Edinburgh.
Making for a bit of an unusual situation, with the protestant unable to directly solve that unrest, and the owning player leaving an unrest gladly unchecked.

I don't believe this was considered in the rules, but after some thought would leave it as is, maybe clarifying that indeed unrest does not block the scottish +2 and be done with it.
 
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