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Subject: Anybody else confused by update 12? rss

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Michaelo Brazen
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I don't understand how "the comic addition was controversial, we understand that not everybody likes it and some do. So instead of 20 pages, we're gonna add 60 more that you'll have to buy as an add on! We hope that makes everybody happy"


Um, how is giving people more of what they don't want a "middle ground"? and it's not even included it's an add-on which makes it even more silly. The comic should just be an add-on period with a new stretch goal taking it's current place. They don't want to do this because they know most people won't buy it.
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Barry Duran
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They received completely conflicting feedback with some ( half? ) enthusiastically backing the idea of the comic/story ( optional to include with game play ) and others horrified by the idea. So this is their solution to reconcile. Understand, they are taking the feedback influences the development of the game approach to a new level, so imho, these situations cannot be avoided. Some people will scream at anything, some will scream at some things, some will love everything ( full disclosure, I'm probably of this last group ).

I would agree that this is not the ideal scenario, but I honestly don't think there is one. So everyone gets a comic. If you don't purchase it as an add-on, it'll be 20 pages. If you do purchase it as an add-on, it'll be 80 pages ( or maybe 100 pages, not clear yet ).

Many said it should only be a 100 page add-on, but that would tick off those who want the additional/optional game play for free, but all in all, those people seem to be in small minority, so it should probably be JUST an add-on.

That all said, these are stretch goals and I'm good with anything they want to do with it.

I made the comment that the fire and fury was not warranted for such an inconsequential addition to the game. Everyone voice their opinion, for sure, the designers are asking for feedback. But I feel the world will end now that we're getting a comic is out of scale with the spirited tone of the feedback/opinions. But, I get it, some people love raising hell, so why not freak out about this ( the NERVE they give us something free that I don't want! ). For the pick fork and torches crowd, it could be a lot worse and this be like most KS where all feedback is ignored ... for which I'm concerned the spirited opinions may drive them to embrace.
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M. S.
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short answer: no

slightly longer answer:
instead of having the additional 60/80 pages as SGs down the line they moved them to one addon.
It's a compromise.
And given that the 2 SGs were already up next it was probably for the best to leave them in the line up from the project management side, anyhow.

if changing the plan was a good idea or not is another question and depends on your viewpoint.
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f h
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The main thing I see is I was going to get something for free (that was optional for game play so if you didn't want to use it you didn't have too) but now I'm going to have to pay for it because people complained... yeah that's a win
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Michaelo Brazen
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gelaar wrote:
But I feel the world will end now that we're getting a comic is out of scale with the spirited tone of the feedback/opinions. But, I get it, some people love raising hell, so why not freak out about this ( the NERVE they give us something free that I don't want! ). For the pick fork and torches crowd, it could be a lot worse and this be like most KS where all feedback is ignored ... for which I'm concerned the spirited opinions may drive them to embrace.



I don't think people had the problem with getting more content added to the game for "free" but that they rather get different content for free like another character, better quality components, more room types, more weapons etc.

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Thilo M.
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fh13 wrote:
The main thing I see is I was going to get something for free (that was optional for game play so if you didn't want to use it you didn't have too) but now I'm going to have to pay for it because people complained... yeah that's a win


No you still get the 20 pages included in the base pledge that were promised. If you want more pages, you have to pay. I guess the extra pages would have been further stretch goals, now they have to come up with other stuff to give you for "free".

Bottom line: you will get something else.

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Barry Duran
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Mangekyo wrote:
I don't think people had the problem with getting more content added to the game for "free" but that they rather get different content for free like another character, better quality components, more room types, more weapons etc.


Fair point, but there are plenty who like the comic/story idea - but I agree with you in that the better solution would be to make it as an add-on completely. That said, they may not have the margin to include an additional character ( there may already be additional characters coming ). The math someone pointed out that they're raking it in so they can afford it is not accurate - for every additional pledge, it's not all "free money", that's an additional game they have to pay to be manufactured and shipped, etc. So there is economies of scale and there's variable costs to consider. More stuff is coming, but we backers by the nature of kickstarters are trusting the game company to manage this and not knowing what the variable production costs are we can't in good faith question or attack it, imho.
 
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M. S.
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gelaar wrote:
Mangekyo wrote:
I don't think people had the problem with getting more content added to the game for "free" but that they rather get different content for free like another character, better quality components, more room types, more weapons etc.


Fair point, but there are plenty who like the comic/story idea - but I agree with you in that the better solution would be to make it as an add-on completely. That said, they may not have the margin to include an additional character ( there may already be additional characters coming ). The math someone pointed out that they're raking it in so they can afford it is not accurate - for every additional pledge, it's not all "free money", that's an additional game they have to pay to be manufactured and shipped, etc. So there is economies of scale and there's variable costs to consider. More stuff is coming, but we backers by the nature of kickstarters are trusting the game company to manage this and not knowing what the variable production costs are we can't in good faith question or attack it, imho.

as a side note, they mentioned later in the comments that not doing the comic stuff as some kind of event card format had also some financial considerations, not surprising given the price differences in printing.

they might have had a slightly easier time if they mentioned that consideration in their initial update.
 
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Pavel Oczko
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I think, AR do not want risk it. That's why he separated this comic book. Simple
 
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Randolph Bookman
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Mangekyo wrote:
gelaar wrote:
But I feel the world will end now that we're getting a comic is out of scale with the spirited tone of the feedback/opinions. But, I get it, some people love raising hell, so why not freak out about this ( the NERVE they give us something free that I don't want! ). For the pick fork and torches crowd, it could be a lot worse and this be like most KS where all feedback is ignored ... for which I'm concerned the spirited opinions may drive them to embrace.



I don't think people had the problem with getting more content added to the game for "free" but that they rather get different content for free like another character, better quality components, more room types, more weapons etc.



No I had a problem that it seems like they're throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks. This change of free to pay seems to add my suspicion. I'll take a free comic, but instead of adding that, I'd rather they work on the on the core game etc. How to limit downtime, how to keep the game balanced. I haven't played it so I can't speak to these other than those are the concerns every reviewer has had.
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Bryan
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On the internet, the voices of those with a problem are always louder than those that are ok with it. Trying to listen to the collective voice of the internet for feedback is like going into a prison with a bag of weapons and politely asking the inmates not to murder you. It's fine, I'll just put in the money for the extra pages and see what else they come up with.
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Barry Duran
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Exo Desta wrote:
Also on the internet (and especially here on BGG) the voices of those who have a problem with people having a problem with something, are always louder than those that are ok with being ok with it.

To be fair, most having a problem with those having a problem has to do with the tone of the feedback. This company chose to be open to feedback, indeed they're asking for it. Since this isn't their first game, I think they knew what they were getting into. While the reconciliation process may seem a mess at times, objective/respectful feedback will be heard "better" than shouting/dis-respectful feedback in that it has better chance of optimal outcomes pleasing the most people while retaining the game logic.
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andy scott
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I'm happy that its a garunteed 80 pages of cool story mode content. I'll happily pay the 12ish to get that. I wasn't that excited for just the 20 pages, so I'm glad they are doing this.

To me this game is about theme, and this stuff just adds more of it. I'm not into this game for a perfectly balanced euro. my 2 cents...

After getting rising sun with all those minis, I do feel that 100 for the base game is more expensive... look at the gloomhaven kickstarter... and only 80 bucks for the dinosaur island deluxe version.... creators are figuring out that people will pay over a 100 for a game that a few years ago would have been 70 bucks...(I'm sure some of that is also a general rise in production costs...)
 
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Mike Doherty
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I think the comic will certainly make playing it as a solo game more interesting. I for one like the idea and think the compromise is good. Let's be honest they are possibly just adding things for the sake of SG now killing time for the Aftermath goal.
I think they should just add that now and when we pass it no more stretch goals ..... I don't see the point of adding things just for the hell of it as I already have what I wanted and abit more.
People wanting stretch goals for the hell of it ...... why? it will eventually bump up the postage so it's not 'free' anyway you will pay for it lol
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Frank Calcagno
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+1 Lyons...
 
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Mike
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I liked the idea of a storybook to go along with sudden events that would need to be completed in the game, it would promote co-op play and maybe give the traitor, if there was one, some way to explain their counter intuitive actions.

I just didn't like the book aspect of it, it's a board game, seems it might be better to have larger cards with the story sequences on them, but I can see how this might be difficult to do and even limit a mini plots length because of space on the cards. That, and the expense of cards instead of a comic book, although I doubt a comic book will survive long being passed around as much as it will compared to cards. But whatever, optional.
 
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John di Battista
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Lyons wrote:
I think the comic will certainly make playing it as a solo game more interesting. I for one like the idea and think the compromise is good. Let's be honest they are possibly just adding things for the sake of SG now killing time for the Aftermath goal.
I think they should just add that now and when we pass it no more stretch goals ..... I don't see the point of adding things just for the hell of it as I already have what I wanted and abit more.
People wanting stretch goals for the hell of it ...... why? it will eventually bump up the postage so it's not 'free' anyway you will pay for it lol


This.

I'm glad AR is taking the minimalist stance on SGs. You don't make a good dish by throwing every ingredient you can think of. Same thing with games.

Last thing I want is a bunch of poorly thought out slapped on extras. The comic is just a little something extra, use it or not, it's not mandatory.
I just wish it was an add on though, two tiered 1 more expensive option for a print version (production, shipping, ect.) and 2 less expensive pdf, simple email. I'd rather get a little discount and still have the digital file than the physical item. I'm sure there would be more than a few posts crying about how the cost for a "complete" experience is soaring out of control if that were the case.
 
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Jason
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I thought the comic really fit with the game design. It's basically adding (optional) narrative flavor to each gameplay. It's like the crossroads deck in Dead of Winter (except it doesn't have to be tiny, barely readable text on a card), the interactions in Above & Below, etc. For what appears to be a highly thematic game, it made sense to me to have it be 80-100 pages of content.

I don't really care that they broke it up, since the price point seems good for 80 pages of more narrative content. It sounds like it'll add a lot of variety to the gameplay. I think the different types of aliens will change it more, but for $12 it seems like good bang for your buck.

Additionally, I could see the book ending up like the smaller Conan expansions that were only printed for the KS. The lack of retailer interest (and maybe some other issues) meant they weren't any print runs to put them on shelves. Plus, other than Memoir '44, has any board game sold what's pretty much a standalone book as an expansion?
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