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Dairyman» Forums » Rules

Subject: Backorder tokens in 2p game? rss

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Tim Tix
Germany
Hamburg
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I play this with my GF and we've got one issue.

In a 2p game you've got three BO tokens. The rules say:
"If the last backorder token is taken, then the player(s) with the most backorder tokens must discard 1 Milk Tile..."

So whenever your opponent goes 2-0 in BO tokens, you just bust/fail voluntarily the very next turn. Your opponent will be the one with the most BO tokens.
Unlike a 3+ player game, there's nothing for you to loose in using your turn to fail. The only thing that could suggest not to fail is that your opponent doesn't have a valuable tile to loose. Then again s/he's some extra red dice to loose. So anyway, in this situation you just fail (and potentially gain a couple of freeze tokens in the process).

So we started to houserule that the player has to discard their highest Milk Tile who took the last BO token - regardless of who's the most of them.

What do you think?
 
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Y P
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I think it's unnecessary. Getting backorder tokens for failing to produce milk is part of pushing your luck. By mitigating the potential penalty for pushing your luck I think you're reducing the tension in the game.

Also, is it worth losing the chance to produce your own milk to make your opponent lose a milk tile? I don't necessarily think so. It could be if your opponent has only a bunch of high value tiles and the ones available for you to produce aren't as good, but one should have at least one "disposable" tile as buffer against this type of strategy or turn milk to cheese as soon as possible.
 
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Tim Tix
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Thanks for you answer. But I guess I disagree.

As I described above, I rob a potentially valuable Milk Tile from my opponent as well as the two dice (that s/he otherwise would benefit from for possibly a couple of turns). That's easily better than getting an own 20 or 30.

I don't see the backorder tokens as a strong penalty either. There's a good chance I won't have any at the end of the game, but I will have had the red die/dice for a couple of turns.
 
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Y P
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Also consider that your opponent benefited from an extra die when she had 1 backorder token, which made it easier to produce milk. Failing to produce milk with an extra die resulting in a 2nd backorder token and putting herself in position to be relieved of a milk tile on your turn was due to her pushing her luck or just bad luck if the rolls were truly awful, both of which are part of the game. I still don't see anything wrong with the rules as written.

To clarify/emphasize: if it's truly better for you to tank a round so your opponent loses a milk tile then do it!
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Tim Tix
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Thanks again. Maybe you're right.
It just felt like a unsatisfyingly destructive auto-move when it happened to us a couple of times.

I also thought this only really happens in 2p games.

First off, in 3+ player games there'll always be other players that you certainly would fall behind against if you're the one busting. I mean, then you probably should rather try to gain points for yourself.

Secondly, in a, say, 4p game with 5 BO tokens, there are fewer clear situations where you can just bust to harm someone specifically because the BO tokens are spread more. (If that makes sense.)
 
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Y P
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Yep, this is mostly a 2p phenomenon, although if in a higher player-count game the leader has 2 backorder tokens it might make sense to hamper the leader by forcing the milk tile discard.

I don't know if I'm right or not about the balance in 2p and whether or not the rules as written are better than your variant idea. I'm just trying to consider the reasons for the rules as written, and to me they make sense. Hopefully it didn't come across as me calling you wrong. It's your game, so you should play it any way you want!

I don't consider an automatic move a bad thing. There are many games where such a situation can occur when your opponent makes a mistake or is unlucky. In all such cases, when an opponent opens up herself to such a move, you should take it! That's just how I feel about it though.
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Tim Tix
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True.

I guess it feels more unsatisfying to me because my GF is like Rahdo's Jen and doesn't like destructive play. So this thing makes me enjoy the game a little less.

Then again I really felt this is an auto-move and a flaw of the game and wondered about how others feel
So, for now I know not everyone sees it like me.

Thanks again for your answers!
 
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Chris Evans
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No, I have felt the same way you have felt. When the best option you have on your turn is to hurt yourself to hurt your opponent, that's broken. I honestly don't see how more people don't notice this serious flaw. We've certainly noticed it in our plays. Why would I let you waltz to an easy 40 pointer with two backnorder dice? So I spend my turn to bust just to take those dice away from you. And the penalty for having them is negligible, it has never come close to being a factor in the end game. I need to find a more balanced and sensible house rule for this aspect of the game because I find it unsatisfying.
 
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