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Bios: Megafauna (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Contest Timing rss

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Niko
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Quick Question: When are contests (both carnivore and herbivore) evaluated?
G2/H2 state that contests happen as part of dispersal, but there is also at least one more occasion for carnivore contest; after a trophic shift where a carnivore already exists.
Are there any other times when contests are evaluated or should I just assume it's constant?

Also, what happens in the following case:
Opponent's flier is preying on my herbivore flier. I disperse my burrower into the area as a herbivore and win the contest against my flier. My flier has rock tools and performs a trophic shift to become a carnivore causing my opponent's flier to become endangered due to lack of prey.
During my opponent's dispersal they brings in one of their burrowers as a herbivore that beats my burrower causing both my burrower and flier to become endangered.
If my opponent's flier has stick tools, will it stay endangered or not?

Lastly, the example for G3 says "However, suppose a large carnivore was also present [...]"
How can there ever be two carnivores present in the same biome? Or should the example read "Suppose instead a large carnivore was present [...]"?
 
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David Fenton
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Quick Question: When are contests (both carnivore and herbivore) evaluated?
G2/H2 state that contests happen as part of dispersal, but there is also at least one more occasion for carnivore contest; after a trophic shift where a carnivore already exists.
Are there any other times when contests are evaluated or should I just assume it's constant?

It is evaluated any time you have more than one non-endangered creature in a trophic level (herbivore or carnivore).


Quote:
Opponent's flier is preying on my herbivore flier. I disperse my burrower into the area as a herbivore and win the contest against my flier. My flier has rock tools and performs a trophic shift to become a carnivore causing my opponent's flier to become endangered due to lack of prey.
During my opponent's dispersal they brings in one of their burrowers as a herbivore that beats my burrower causing both my burrower and flier to become endangered.
If my opponent's flier has stick tools, will it stay endangered or not?

The ONLY time a Creeple can become non-endangered is at the end of the turn. In your case, both carnivores become endangered. However, at the end of the turn, an endangered Creeple is stood upright if it is in an uncontested, habitable trophic level. Since there is no non-endangered carnivore, the carnivore trophic level is uncontested (endangered Creeples cannot participate in contests). Your burrower carnivore cannot stand up, since it is not habitable (no viable prey). The flier CAN fill the uncontested carnivore trophic level. Note that if the new herbivore had not driven your carnivore endangered, the flier would not have a chance to duke it out, even if it would be a "better" carnivore.


Quote:
Lastly, the example for G3 says "However, suppose a large carnivore was also present [...]"
How can there ever be two carnivores present in the same biome? Or should the example read "Suppose instead a large carnivore was present [...]"?

They mean "instead". (I proposed a fix to the living rules to make this clear)
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Martin
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Quick Question: When are contests (both carnivore and herbivore) evaluated?
G2/H2 state that contests happen as part of dispersal, but there is also at least one more occasion for carnivore contest; after a trophic shift where a carnivore already exists.
Are there any other times when contests are evaluated or should I just assume it's constant?


It's constant, however remember that endangered species are not counted in contests (as per G1) and you only remove Endangered species in phase 4.b.

Ze_German_Guy wrote:

Also, what happens in the following case:
Opponent's flier is preying on my herbivore flier. I disperse my burrower into the area as a herbivore and win the contest against my flier causing my opponent's flier to become endangered due to lack of prey. My flier has rock stick tools and performs a trophic shift to become a carnivore causing my opponent's flier to become endangered due to lack of prey.
During my opponent's dispersal they brings in one of their burrowers as a herbivore that beats my burrower causing both my burrower and flier to become endangered.
If my opponent's flier has stick tools, will it stay endangered or not?


I noticed some mistakes in your description so I have taken the liberty of striking and/or moving sections. Let me know if I have interpreted it correctly, or if you meant to say armoured creeple rather than burrower somewhere.

Anyway, assuming this is the correct interpretation; if your opponents flier had stick tools all along it would have gone down to a carnivore contest between your flier and your opponents flier. If it got stick tools later in the turn (after becoming endangered) it would still get buried as it was in a contested biome/trophic level (as per I2). Your flier would not become endanged by the invading opponent burrower, since it has the stick tool.

Ze_German_Guy wrote:

Lastly, the example for G3 says "However, suppose a large carnivore was also present [...]"
How can there ever be two carnivores present in the same biome? Or should the example read "Suppose instead a large carnivore was present [...]"?


Yes, this is incorrect and has been updated in the living rules to: "However, instead suppose a large carnivore was also present, able to eat the moose."
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Niko
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Thanks for the Answers!

Martin: I did indeed screw that example up, my second shape should be armoured;

Opponent's flier is preying on my herbivore flier. I disperse my armored creeple into the area as a herbivore and win the contest against my flier. My flier has rock tools and performs a trophic shift to become a carnivore causing my opponent's flier to become endangered due to lack of prey.
During my opponent's dispersal they bring in one of their burrowers as a herbivore that beats my armored creeple causing both my armored creeple and flier to become endangered.
If my opponent's flier has stick tools, will it stay endangered or not?

Since there are two endangered fliers when "burial of the endangered" happens, do they both stand up or not? When they are both endangered the biome is uncontested, but if they both stand up it's contested...
David's sounds like I2 should also state to only stand a carnivore up if it has suitable prey which makes sense, but I cannot actually find that anywhere in the rules so it should probably be added.
What's the best way to do that? Just add a comment to the living rules?
 
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Martin
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Thanks for the Answers!

Martin: I did indeed screw that example up, my second shape should be armoured;

Opponent's flier is preying on my herbivore flier. I disperse my armored creeple into the area as a herbivore and win the contest against my flier. My flier has rock tools and performs a trophic shift to become a carnivore causing my opponent's flier to become endangered due to lack of prey.
During my opponent's dispersal they bring in one of their burrowers as a herbivore that beats my armored creeple causing both my armored creeple and flier to become endangered.
If my opponent's flier has stick tools, will it stay endangered or not?

Since there are two endangered fliers when "burial of the endangered" happens, do they both stand up or not? When they are both endangered the biome is uncontested, but if they both stand up it's contested...
David's sounds like I2 should also state to only stand a carnivore up if it has suitable prey which makes sense, but I cannot actually find that anywhere in the rules so it should probably be added.
What's the best way to do that? Just add a comment to the living rules?


Ah, that clears things up!

In that case since both carnivores are endangered during burial the biome is in effect uncontested. If the biome is uncontested and it is habitable by an endangered creeple there it stands back up. Since your opponent has edible prey and the biome is uncontested (your endangered flier doesn't count) it doesn't get buried.

I2 actually says that already: "If a Creeple is Endangered (i.e. lying on its side), stand it upright if it is in an uncontested habitable Trophic Level."

A biome is habitable for a carnivore if there's edible prey there.
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David Fenton
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
If my opponent's flier has stick tools, will it stay endangered or not?

It would stand up.

Quote:
Since there are two endangered fliers when "burial of the endangered" happens, do they both stand up or not? When they are both endangered the biome is uncontested, but if they both stand up it's contested...

You can only stand up if you can inhabit the space (see next). So in your case it's not an issue. I can imagine a case where you might have two endangered Creeples with valid prey (maybe they bought tools), so it's still a valid question.

Quote:
David's sounds like I2 should also state to only stand a carnivore up if it has suitable prey which makes sense, but I cannot actually find that anywhere in the rules so it should probably be added.

I2 says to stand up if in an "uncontested habitable Trophic Level". F4 states "a Creeple may not move to inhabit a Biome as a Carnivore unless there is at least one Herbivore Creeple there that is suitable for it to eat". Thus for a Carnivore trophic level to be habitable, it must have a suitable prey.

Quote:
What's the best way to do that? Just add a comment to the living rules?

Yeah, or suggest alternate wording. I think the suitable prey is already covered by I2 and F4 (similar language in G8), but I'll ask about the if multiple endangered would have suitable prey.
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David Arlington
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Ok, here's my timing question.

Size 1 flyer eating a species that gains venomous immediately becomes endangered. Flip it on its side.

During dispersal, I move in a new herbivore that the flyer can eat that would win herbivore contest against the venomous herbivore. Venomous herbivore now endangered as well.

Which happens?

Endangered flyer does not count for contest, so new herbivore wins over venomous herbivore and flyer and venomous herbivore both removed.

OR

During I2, it is reassessed and since carnivore now has viable prey in new herbivore and venomous herbivore is in edible, it's the flyer and the new herbivore that gets buried and venomous herbivore survives?

Thanks,
Dave

 
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Niko
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DocSavage2001 wrote:
Ok, here's my timing question.

Size 1 flyer eating a species that gains venomous immediately becomes endangered. Flip it on its side.

During dispersal, I move in a new herbivore that the flyer can eat that would win herbivore contest against the venomous herbivore. Venomous herbivore now endangered as well.

Which happens?

Endangered flyer does not count for contest, so new herbivore wins over venomous herbivore and flyer and venomous herbivore both removed.

OR

During I2, it is reassessed and since carnivore now has viable prey in new herbivore and venomous herbivore is in edible, it's the flyer and the new herbivore that gets buried and venomous herbivore survives?

Thanks,
Dave

My understanding based on the answers above is neither of the two:
During the herbivore contest the flier doesn't count, making the venomous herbivore endangered. During I2 the flier is in an uncontested trophic level and has edible prey so it is stood upright. The venomous herbivore is removed.
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David Arlington
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
DocSavage2001 wrote:
Ok, here's my timing question.

Size 1 flyer eating a species that gains venomous immediately becomes endangered. Flip it on its side.

During dispersal, I move in a new herbivore that the flyer can eat that would win herbivore contest against the venomous herbivore. Venomous herbivore now endangered as well.

Which happens?

Endangered flyer does not count for contest, so new herbivore wins over venomous herbivore and flyer and venomous herbivore both removed.

OR

During I2, it is reassessed and since carnivore now has viable prey in new herbivore and venomous herbivore is in edible, it's the flyer and the new herbivore that gets buried and venomous herbivore survives?

Thanks,
Dave

My understanding based on the answers above is neither of the two:
During the herbivore contest the flier doesn't count, making the venomous herbivore endangered. During I2 the flier is in an uncontested trophic level and has edible prey so it is stood upright. The venomous herbivore is removed.


But if the flyer has edible prey and inedible prey, the carnivore and it's edible prey go away by virtue of first rule of herbivore contests. I don't see any scenario where the flyer would survive.

To me, the question is which herbivore, unless I have it all wrong.

Dave
 
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Niko
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DocSavage2001 wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
DocSavage2001 wrote:
Ok, here's my timing question.

Size 1 flyer eating a species that gains venomous immediately becomes endangered. Flip it on its side.

During dispersal, I move in a new herbivore that the flyer can eat that would win herbivore contest against the venomous herbivore. Venomous herbivore now endangered as well.

Which happens?

Endangered flyer does not count for contest, so new herbivore wins over venomous herbivore and flyer and venomous herbivore both removed.

OR

During I2, it is reassessed and since carnivore now has viable prey in new herbivore and venomous herbivore is in edible, it's the flyer and the new herbivore that gets buried and venomous herbivore survives?

Thanks,
Dave

My understanding based on the answers above is neither of the two:
During the herbivore contest the flier doesn't count, making the venomous herbivore endangered. During I2 the flier is in an uncontested trophic level and has edible prey so it is stood upright. The venomous herbivore is removed.


But if the flyer has edible prey and inedible prey, the carnivore and it's edible prey go away by virtue of first rule of herbivore contests. I don't see any scenario where the flyer would survive.

To me, the question is which herbivore, unless I have it all wrong.

Dave
During the herbivore contest the flyer is ignored since it is endangered. During I2 the venomous species can't stand up since it is not in an uncontested biome.
As such there is never a time when all three species are unendangerd, i.e. there is never a time when the flyer has both edible and inedible prey. At one point he has no edible prey and becomes endangered, later he has only edible prey since the venoumous species is endangered.

See answers from David and Martin to my first question of the original post; you only perform the contest procedures when there are two unendangerd species in a trophic level. In your example there is one herbivore contest which results in the venomous species becoming endangered since the already endangered flier is ignored, but during I2 after the flier stands back up there is no herbivore contest since there is only one unendangered herbivore in the biome.
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David Arlington
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Thank you for walking me through it step by step. In my game, I didn't know the answer (and would have been wrong with either choice!) so I just put that herbivore someplace else to avoid it. I'm glad I did now though I lost a flyer in the deal. Thanks again for the detailed answer!

Dave
 
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David Fenton
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
My understanding based on the answers above is neither of the two:
During the herbivore contest the flier doesn't count, making the venomous herbivore endangered. During I2 the flier is in an uncontested trophic level and has edible prey so it is stood upright. The venomous herbivore is removed.

The only thing I'm not sure about is, if the endangered Creeple could survive by becoming a carnivore (and eating the non-venomous herbivore), does it perform a Trophic shift (leading to a contested carnivore level and killing both carnivores)?. Or can it only perform a Trophic shift if the carnivore level is uncontested?
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dsdhornet wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
My understanding based on the answers above is neither of the two:
During the herbivore contest the flier doesn't count, making the venomous herbivore endangered. During I2 the flier is in an uncontested trophic level and has edible prey so it is stood upright. The venomous herbivore is removed.

The only thing I'm not sure about is, if the endangered Creeple could survive by becoming a carnivore (and eating the non-venomous herbivore), does it perform a Trophic shift (leading to a contested carnivore level and killing both carnivores)?. Or can it only perform a Trophic shift if the carnivore level is uncontested?
If the venomous creature can eat the other herbivore it can do a trophic shift after the herbivore contest which would result in only the flier being removed during I2.

I see your comments on the living rules though, not sure what would happen if the trophic shift couldn't happen during phase 3 for some reason.
 
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David Arlington
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dsdhornet wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
My understanding based on the answers above is neither of the two:
During the herbivore contest the flier doesn't count, making the venomous herbivore endangered. During I2 the flier is in an uncontested trophic level and has edible prey so it is stood upright. The venomous herbivore is removed.

The only thing I'm not sure about is, if the endangered Creeple could survive by becoming a carnivore (and eating the non-venomous herbivore), does it perform a Trophic shift (leading to a contested carnivore level and killing both carnivores)?. Or can it only perform a Trophic shift if the carnivore level is uncontested?


Ahhh you're right. Another thing I missed there since both were Archetypes. But I always was guilty of forgetting the Trophic shift in the previous version of Bios Megafauna as well, so that's no fault of this version's rules. Then I wouldn't have had any questions at all.

But glad I got it cleared up anyway for the future!

Dave
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Martin
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dsdhornet wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
My understanding based on the answers above is neither of the two:
During the herbivore contest the flier doesn't count, making the venomous herbivore endangered. During I2 the flier is in an uncontested trophic level and has edible prey so it is stood upright. The venomous herbivore is removed.

The only thing I'm not sure about is, if the endangered Creeple could survive by becoming a carnivore (and eating the non-venomous herbivore), does it perform a Trophic shift (leading to a contested carnivore level and killing both carnivores)?. Or can it only perform a Trophic shift if the carnivore level is uncontested?


If the original venomous herbivore could eat the new invading herbivore species, then yes, of course it could make a trophic shift. In this case it would be no contest since the flier is endangered, but even if it wasn't you would simply resolve an immediate carnivore contest as per G8.
 
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