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Subject: Help me drum up the courage to try T&T rss

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EDG
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I've been sitting on a copy of T&T 2e since the P500 came through, but I haven't tried it yet - I keep opening it up, looking at it, reading some of the rules and then putting it back on the shelf. For some reason this game intimidates me, which is odd since I enjoy the COIN games and Twilight Struggle and I can handle those. I guess there's something about T&T that is putting me off, even though I like the idea it... I've also heard that it takes a really long time to play a game (like, 6-8 hours) which is a bit off-putting. I have tried watching gameplay videos but tbh I haven't really found one that can keep my attention for long enough.

Is it really that complex? The complexity rating on the back of the box is lower than COIN (which I can handle) so theoretically I shouldn't find it that hard to follow, right? And does it really take that long? That worries me since we usually take a long time to play COIN games so if this one is supposed to be even longer then we may never finish! Is there a 'short game' option in T&T?

Basically, can anyone put my mind at ease here? Is it similar to any other games, so I could perhaps get a handle on it? Please tell me why I should give this a try! (beyond "you've got it, so just play it already")
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What I'd suggest is first setting up the game and walking through the playbook a couple of times to become familiar with the mechanics.

Next, download and read through some of the player aid files including

o Triumph & Tragedy Extended Player Aid
o Flattening the Learning Curve
o Triumph & Tragedy - Reference Sheets
o Deluxe Edition: Expanded Units and Area Control Effects Tables

Then, I would be great if you could follow through a couple of well-played, competitive, step-by-step game plays, if you can find them.

Finally, you might also consider some nothing-hidden solitaire games so that the play sequence and rules become very familiar. If you have a table somewhere that you could leave the game set up and just play one or two yearly turns a day, it would be ideal.

Then, I think you'd be ready to play competitively. T&T is a lot of fun with a great variety of outcomes.

Hope this helps.
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bones marones
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I'm in the same boat - massive fan of Twilight Struggle 1989 Labryinth and COIN .. play and understand them well but just am having a difficult time grasping the sea movement concept w coastal areas etc but would love if someone has a link which displays the type of movement allowed and spells out what is a movement space i.e. how would one interact with the Azures ... unfortunately I know I need to learn the intracies and minute details before I can introduce to others but can't wait - game seems so open to different unique scenarios

 
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Phil McDonald
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I would say T&T is a medium complexity game and the rules are clearly and concisely written.

I watched a gameplay video first before reading the rules to give them context (as I usually do). Then I played a solo game to embed the rules. It was very enjoyable.

I have since played a 3p game with 2 buddies F2F and a 3p game using vassal play by email.

The game quickly becomes intuitive for the most part, with less than usual rules reference required for a war game.

Extremely well implemented and great fun. 3 player war games are thin on the ground and this is a doozy.

The blockade rules, especially through the Med, are probably the hardest to grasp, although they have not been a large feature of the games I've played so far.

My early experience is that it's hardest to play Axis, being piggy in the middle and being an obvious target for both Soviets and Western Powers, but on the other hand they are possibly most fun to play.

Enjoy.
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EDG
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DieterS wrote:
Then, I think you'd be ready to play competitively. T&T is a lot of fun with a great variety of outcomes.


You realise all of that isn't exactly encouraging, right? Is the game so hard to understand and/or the learning curve so steep that it requires multiple rule readthroughs, videos, supplementary material and solo plays (which it claims it isn't suited for) before one can grasp it? That seems a little excessive to me!
 
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juerg haeberli
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I am a hardcore war gamer so my point of view might be a little bit slanted.

Best way to learn this game would be to read the rules and then play it with one experienced T&T player and another player.

At my last convention I explained the game for about 30-45 minutes and then we played for about 5 hours.

If you are missing an experieced T&T player all read the rules and then you all play the examples of play to see how it comes together.

For any questions that will arise you will probabely find an answer in this forum.

For me T&T is close to a beer and prezels games.
This means compared to other games the rules are not long and very well written.
Time is between 2 and 8 hours depending on how experienced the players are.
In my group between 2 and 6 hours.

I dont know many games that give so much in return for the time you invest.

So go ahead get two buddies, start reading, play the example of play and get started. You will not look back and be very happy with the game experience.

Have fun and best of luck.

Jürg
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David E
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EDG_ wrote:
DieterS wrote:
Then, I think you'd be ready to play competitively. T&T is a lot of fun with a great variety of outcomes.


You realise all of that isn't exactly encouraging, right? Is the game so hard to understand and/or the learning curve so steep that it requires multiple rule readthroughs, videos, supplementary material and solo plays (which it claims it isn't suited for) before one can grasp it? That seems a little excessive to me!



I guess it depends on what games you consider complex normally. Compared to a typical boardgame, or even a heavy Euro, T&T is pretty complex. Compared to a traditional wargame, T&T is not very complex.

The majority of the rules and the basic flow of the game are pretty easy. You have cards which can be used for multiple purposes - either influencing countries, buying technologies, improving your Industries, or moving units. Combat is pretty simple and the order of operations is printed right on the map. Once you have played a game or two (I started by playing multi-player solitaire), it will seem quite natural.

The complexity is mostly in a few situations that only come up occasionally - blockades, tracing lines of supply, and for some reason people have lots of trouble with the rules for straights. Naval battles (especially with subs) also require you to work your way through them step by step the first few times because there can be a somewhat fiddly order of operations.

It's not that the game itself is complicated, but that the basic game is very simple ("beer and pretzels," as someone else said) but there are a fairly large number of special rules and exceptions which can come up.

It can be long. There is a short scenario which starts you out mid-war, but yes, the full game, especially your first time through, can be nearly an all day affair. (With experienced players, I've gotten through a game in less than 6 hours. It's possible to do it in as little as 4, but that usually requires someone scoring an early victory.)
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Mark Buetow
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The political part of the game is like Twilight Struggle: You use cards to battle over influencing countries.

The military aspect can't really be more complex than a COIN game. You have a reference card which points out how units move and fight and there's just some rules for terrain and stuff. Cards then influence how units fight and throw a few other minor wrenches in the works.

And with some reasonably competent opponents, I've never seen a game go longer than 4 hours.

Find a couple of opponents and go for it.

Triumph and Tragedy's "complexity" really lies in its open-ended nature and the fun challenge of deciding whether you need to actually go to war, and with whom.
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Jim McNaughton
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haeberich wrote:

Time is between 2 and 8 hours depending on how experienced the players are.
In my group between 2 and 6 hours.

I dont know many games that give so much in return for the time you invest.


As another wargamer I have to disagree that the game 'gives so much'. I have found it to be neither interesting nor challenging. I'd advise the OP not to bother. Sell it off and buy something worthwhile! devil
 
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EDG
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I think I found one reason I didn't want to get it set up... putting the stickers on all those blocks! Ugh. Oh well, I'm getting through it slowly, but it's such a fiddly task, I hate it.

Also the sticker pad talks about "orange blocks" for neutrals but there aren't any? I presume they mean the yellow ones, just from a process of elimination...).
 
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Mark Buetow
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EDG_ wrote:
I think I found one reason I didn't want to get it set up... putting the stickers on all those blocks! Ugh. Oh well, I'm getting through it slowly, but it's such a fiddly task, I hate it.

Also the sticker pad talks about "orange blocks" for neutrals but there aren't any? I presume they mean the yellow ones, just from a process of elimination...).


Um, no. There should be actual orange blocks. The yellow are Italian.
 
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EDG
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Malacandra wrote:
Um, no. There should be actual orange blocks. The yellow are Italian.


Not in my copy (I have 2e if it makes a difference):

Neutral is yellow blocks with tan labels.
Italian are olive blocks with olive labels.
Germany is grey blocks with grey labels.
USSR is red blocks with red labels
Britain is dark blue blocks with dark blue labels.
France is light blue blocks with light blue labels.
USA is green blocks with green labels.

There's nothing remotely orange in there at all. (I know because I've just finished them all, phew. Looks like two spares of each block colour, except for Germany and USSR with three spares each).
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EDG
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Can someone please explain which counter sheet I'm supposed to use? I have two sheets - Sheet1 seems to have large counters (with rounded corners) that are the same design as the counters on Sheet2 (the counters on Sheet2 are smaller and have sharp corners). They both seem to have Control on the front and Influence on the back, but there's more of the square-cornered ones than the rounded-corner ones. I can't find anything in the rules (in section 4.0, Cards and Markers or elsewhere) that explains the difference between the larger and smaller versions of the counters.
 
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Mark Buetow
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EDG_ wrote:
Can someone please explain which counter sheet I'm supposed to use? I have two sheets - Sheet1 seems to have large counters (with rounded corners) that are the same design as the counters on Sheet2 (the counters on Sheet2 are smaller and have sharp corners). They both seem to have Control on the front and Influence on the back, but there's more of the square-cornered ones than the rounded-corner ones. I can't find anything in the rules (in section 4.0, Cards and Markers or elsewhere) that explains the difference between the larger and smaller versions of the counters.


That sounds like maybe a 2e upgrade. As for the orange blocks, well, I guess use the yellow. Maybe another 2e change? As long as the color scheme you listed above works and you have stickers for all the blocks.
 
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EDG
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Here's a picture of the counters I have (front and back): https://imgur.com/0DVbu79

Which ones am I supposed to use, and what's the difference between them?
 
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Dave Turcan
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I wish I could get this to the table more with my friends. At first I thought it was a bit daunting. I set it up, read the rules and watched Stuka Joe's videos on the game. I followed along and it really helped me understand the rules.

I then set it up again and tried playing against myself, doing the best I could for all sides. That then showed me some strategies you could go with, and THAT really got my mind thinking and my interest in the game shot WAY up.
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Peter Collins
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EDG_ wrote:
Here's a picture of the counters I have (front and back): https://imgur.com/0DVbu79

Which ones am I supposed to use, and what's the difference between them?


Use the ones you like best.

Get two friends, set up the game and play. Repeat until you have the desired level of fluency with the system. Mistakes will be made. If you don't like it, give or trade it to someone who does. It's a boardgame, not a life partner.
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Andrew Laws
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AmadanNaBriona wrote:

It can be long. There is a short scenario which starts you out mid-war, but yes, the full game, especially your first time through, can be nearly an all day affair. (With experienced players, I've gotten through a game in less than 6 hours. It's possible to do it in as little as 4, but that usually requires someone scoring an early victory.)


I've played close to 20 games of TnT with the same two opponents and we can regularly play the whole war in 3 hours, down from closer to 5 hours when we first started out.
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EDG_ wrote:
I've been sitting on a copy of T&T 2e since the P500 came through, but I haven't tried it yet - I keep opening it up, looking at it, reading some of the rules and then putting it back on the shelf. For some reason this game intimidates me, which is odd since I enjoy the COIN games and Twilight Struggle and I can handle those. I guess there's something about T&T that is putting me off, even though I like the idea it... I've also heard that it takes a really long time to play a game (like, 6-8 hours) which is a bit off-putting. I have tried watching gameplay videos but tbh I haven't really found one that can keep my attention for long enough.

Cannot help, since I'm in the exact same situation!

My case became even harder since I discovered Quartermaster General during Xmas holidays, after playing the whole war in 90 min with very simple rules I cannot see myself getting my friends to play this one instead...

But I like the design, so I don't give up, I'll keep it for a hopefully not-so-distant future when I'll have more time for games!
 
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Steven Fuller
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This game is not very difficult when it comes to war games and I don't mean to say that in a condescending manner.

Production is super simple as everything costs a single unit. That is probably my favourite part of the design.

Combat is resolved through die-rolls in a fixed sequence.

If game length is not a problem and you think you can find 3 people who are willing to strategize to the degree that this game requires then I say go for it; otherwise I have learned that each gaming group has their own games that they will or will not play and if this isn't getting on the table it may be best to just trade it.

-You need to be able to play with people who are willing to sit for 4+ hours.
-Who will not look at other's blocks or cheat.
-Who will not complain when they are being ganged up upon.
-Who are ruthless and cunning and are willing to crush their friends mercilessly


This is one of my favourite games. I played it twice last week and am going to play it tomorrow. The amount of strategic variety is unsurpassed.
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EDG
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apparently this game has a strong Canadian fanbase, judging by the flags under the usernames here
 
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Geoff C
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Its not a difficult game to learn, although there are a few concepts that take some getting used to.

In essence;
take peace chits
determine order
buy blocks/cards
spend cards for influence or factory or tech
3 seasons of seasonal card play to move and fight with blocks
winter
repeat

Very stripped down version, but that is the bones of the system. I have come to love this game, for its cards and blocks and sheer elegance. As it is a three player game, you can get a bit of a deer in headlights syndrome in your first games which make for long games...until the axis player figures out his best path to victory is swift decisive military action (after a turn or two spent gathering resources via diplomacy or neutral conquering).

GL!
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Alec D.
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If you're in toronto I'd invite you to join one of our T&T sessions.
 
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EDG
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Ultimos604 wrote:
If you're in toronto I'd invite you to join one of our T&T sessions.


I'm not sadly, but thanks for the offer!
 
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Jens Witgeers
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EDG_ wrote:
apparently this game has a strong Canadian fanbase, judging by the flags under the usernames here


There are at least 4 fans in Belgium as well!

I agree with most that has been said. The game seemed overwhelming to me as well, but after watching the videos of Stuka Joe on Youtube(someone else mentioned them as well) I had a good grasp of how the game worked. Sure, some things come up the first few times you play but nothing too hard. I hope you try it, because I found it a very rewarding game and I can't wait to play it again, sooner rather than later please!
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