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Subject: What it could do better comparing to other (cooperative adventure) fantasy card games ? rss

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Francesco
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Hello everybody,

there are probably too few information about the legacy aspects, but I would be glad if you could share your feelings/expectations on what this game could do better comparing to other (cooperative adventure) fantasy card games.

For a while I have been looking for a replacement of Warhammer Quest Adventure Card Game in my wife's top 10. We have tried many fantasy card games, in particular the cooperative adventures (Lord of the Rings, Arkham Horror, Pathfinder) but they didn't work for us.

On my wife's list, two BGG users have suggested me to look for Aeon's End and that's why I am here.

Gloomhaven is the only legacy game we play (and own). We really like characters leveling (as in Mage Knight and also in Descent Road to Legend) but we hate permanent changes in a game (we bought removable stickers for Gloomhaven).


I am expecting (almost all) the users who are following this forum now are big fans of the series. Still I hope I could get some objective feedbacks about what Aeon's End: Legacy could be (and the series in general).




Thanks in advance for your feedback.
 
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Mithrandir82 wrote:
Hello everybody,

there are probably too few information about the legacy aspects, but I would be glad if you could share your feelings/expectations on what this game could do better comparing to other (cooperative adventure) fantasy card games.

For a while I have been looking for a replacement of Warhammer Quest Adventure Card Game in my wife's top 10. We have tried many fantasy card games, in particular the cooperative adventures (Lord of the Rings, Arkham Horror, Pathfinder) but they didn't work for us.

On my wife's list, two BGG users have suggested me to look for Aeon's End and that's why I am here. I am expecting (almost all) the users who are following this forum now are big fans of the series. Still I hope I could get some objective feedbacks about what Aeon's End: Legacy could be (and the series in general).

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

this series has nothing to do with the type of games you mentioned. Aeon's end is a very original deckbuilder, nothing to do with an adventure. Maybe watch one of the many reviews for it to get a feel for this game.
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borsook wrote:
this series has nothing to do with the type of games you mentioned. Aeon's end is a very original deckbuilder, nothing to do with an adventure. Maybe watch one of the many reviews for it to get a feel for this game.


Thanks for your feedback.

I have watched some videos but I thought the legacy aspect could somehow brings also the adventure aspect into Aeon's End. The concept itself of "adventure" can be expressed in a soft or deeper way. From my side characters leveling and a bit of theme is enough. I am quoting also what the designer has posted on BGG:

qxc0 wrote:
You'll get a narrative, long form ~campaign experience where you build a character, game by game. When it's all done, you'll have a whole new slew of content to replay again and again.


Furthermore we like deck building in different shapes, not only the one proposed in Mage Knight, but also the one from Thunderstone Advance: Towers of Ruin.
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Derek Long
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I love Aeon's End - it was my most played game last year. In terms of legacy games - I also love Gloomhaven and, like you, hate permanent game changing features, so bought the stickers.

Since we seem to share some common ground (Mage Knight is another favourite) you might be interested in a couple of other games of this type that I enjoy = Mistfall/Heart of the Mists and Gloom of Kilforth.

Meanwhile, as to Aeon's End: Legacy = Kevin has already made clear that a great deal of it will be reusable. The legacy element follows the development of Mages and their personal powers. It remains to be seen how much space that opens up (presumably characters still have to deck build from their starter deck each new game, which tends to undermine the legacy feel for me = there is a campaign available for Mistfall which seems to me to be the weakest element, for similar reasons). If you build up a character significantly in the game, then it does not feel right to throw most of that away and start the next game back at virtually the beginning again, if you are also trying to see this as a continuing development of the character's story.
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Jim P
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Mithrandir82 wrote:
We have tried many fantasy card games, in particular the cooperative adventures (Lord of the Rings, Arkham Horror, Pathfinder) but they didn't work for us.



Do you think you can pinpoint what you didn't like about those games?

As people have said, Aeon's End isn't massively similar, but if you know what put you off previous titles it'll be easier to say whether you're likely to find it here.
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You don't like permanent changes and the use of stickers, yet you ask the question on a Legacy game forum. I wonder what you're expecting, since of course there will be stickers and permanent alteration to the game's components, as you're basically building your own mage.
If you don't like that, you won't like Aeon's End Legacy. I suggest you give a shot to non-Legacy Aeon's End instead. The games are very solid despite their lack of narrative and campaign aspect.

As for what it would bring, I'm afraid it's too soon to ask, since no-one really has a clue, or has authorization to disclose that kind of information yet. So basically: we don't know much more than you at the moment You'll build your mage, you'll have content you can play with after the campaign's over. That's it.

And why would you want to replace one of your wife's most beloved game?
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Derek Long wrote:
Since we seem to share some common ground (Mage Knight is another favourite) you might be interested in a couple of other games of this type that I enjoy = Mistfall/Heart of the Mists and Gloom of Kilforth.


Mistfall seems too long for a card game and Gloom of Kilforth is a missed Kickstarter which I could skip even just for economical reason. But thank anyway for the suggestions Derek.

Derek Long wrote:
If you build up a character significantly in the game, then it does not feel right to throw most of that away and start the next game back at virtually the beginning again, if you are also trying to see this as a continuing development of the character's story.


I see what you mean but, being Aeon's End a deck building game, some compromises have to be made. However, from my understanding, the developed characters could be used also in previous versions. That could mean also that the starting hand and/or deck could evolve (some cards could be kept from one game to another one), although I am not sure about it. The designer could set up a reference level/power for a character to be used in other games. We will see.

Mightyjim wrote:
Do you think you can pinpoint what you didn't like about those games?

Hello Jim, I have previously reported this info on the wishlist:
Mithrandir82 wrote:
boardgamescardgames wrote:
What didn't work for you about Pathfinder, Arkham, and LotR?


Honestly I think they have good concepts, our negative reaction to them was quite personal and subjective.

LotR has the theme, and it is a quite fast cooperative. Still we didn't have the feeling that, during the game, we were doing many challenging choices. I played also solo and I had still the feeling that most of the fun was on the preparation of the deck before the adventure. If you prepare it quite well and you trigger your synergies the game doesn't provide so much excitement. And my wife doesn't like too much spending time on a game before actually playing with me. Also, at least in the core set, we didn't feel we were impersonating a character but merely managing resources.

Arkham Horror was a failed attempt to try a game with an horror theme. We had the feeling was a mix between LoTR and Warhammer Quest: The Adventure Card Game which, in theory, could have worked. But the simple of idea of running away from monster instead of killing them (which sometimes is really the best thing you could do) was unbearable for my wife. Sure sometimes you do it also on Warhammer Quest but usually just because you are running out of time and generally not because you fear them. Life is hard and full of compromises, just let me be an hero and kill monster at least in a game !!

I was seriously considering Pathfinder as a fast deck building fantasy adventure game with hero levelling but the cold reaction of my wife put me off. I think she felt there was too much dice rolling. I tried myself the app and I wasn't impressed neither. If I will have the chance I could try to play it again with her but I wouldn't buy unless she show interest in it.



Razoupaf wrote:
You don't like permanent changes and the use of stickers, yet you ask the question on a Legacy game forum. I wonder what you're expecting, since of course there will be stickers and permanent alteration to the game's components, as you're basically building your own mage.


I am not expecting anything in particular, I am in a waiting position. Being a (possible) newcomer in the series, I am glad to leave the initiative to more expert gamers who knows better than me the possible (and best) directions the game could/should follow.

However, the “legacy” concept is not so old and it is still evolving, so I wouldn’t surprise if the changes in the game wouldn’t be “physically” permanent (or maybe removable stickers will be offered as for Gloomhaven).

Razoupaf wrote:
And why would you want to replace one of your wife's most beloved game?


Good question.

Mainly because there could be a huge gap, in term of frequency of plays, between the top positions and a 9th position. My wife is also losing interest on it, and we are playing it too rarely for my taste.

I really like card games, they may be not so deep as big board games, but they are fast and portable. At the moment Splendor is getting too much attention in this segment (again, in my opinion) and I am really looking forward to a serious competitor with a bit of theme and characters progression feeling !!
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I think Aeon's End should be your entry point.
Then you can see if you like the game enough to enter a Legacy campaign with the same system.

That's the best answer I can give you at the moment
With a couple expansions there is no reason why this game would not climb into your wife's top 10 whistle
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Razoupaf wrote:
I think Aeon's End should be your entry point.
Then you can see if you like the game enough to enter a Legacy campaign with the same system.

That's the best answer I can give you at the moment
With a couple expansions there is no reason why this game would not climb into your wife's top 10 whistle


I just want to chime in on this. The Aeon's End series has become my wife favorite game since we received War Eternal (we started with War eternal, then Bought all the 2016 content afterward). Although there is not a built-in campaign in the two stand alone non-legacy games already released, you can play it yourself in a campaign-like mode like we did.

Here is what we did: We started with the lowest-complexity Nemesis and the starting Market and 2 of the starting Breach Mage according to the rule book "first game setup". When we lost, we change one or two Market card decks to help us with with the current Nemesis and the Mage we were using (we kept the Nemesis deck exactly the same in this case). When we won, we changed 4-5 deck of the Market to change the game significantly and then we chose 2 new Mages that seem to fit with this new Market and the current Nemesis. Again, on a lost we tweak 1 or 2 Market decks to hep us win, and with a second win against the same Nemesis, we changed to the next higher-complexity Nemesis, with again, around half the Market deck changed. And we went like this until we beat all the Nemeses in order of complexity.

To add to the campaign feel, don't forget to read the flavor text behind each Nemesis Mats.

If I were you here what I would try: Buy one of the stand alone game (either Aeon's End (2nd Edition) or Aeon's End: War Eternal) and try it yourself with your wife. These are non-legacy games, so if you don't like it, you can easily sell this game afterward. If you like it and your wife like it, you will end up buying all the content and you will have a great 2018 year playing a lot of this game. If you can try it before the Aeon's End: Legacy Kickstarter end, you'll be able to buy it then, or if you miss this short window (which is coming fast too), it will end up in the normal distribution system and you'll be able to buy it in your favorite FLGS.


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Francesco
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From my understanding the Legacy version is also a stand alone game, is there a particular reason why we should start with the older versions and risk to miss the (more convenient and appealing) Kickstarter ? I am sure Ethernal War could be a good option (solid mechanics and nicer artwork) but I though the legacy version could retain also the feeling of the original game so many people like.

Up until now I haven't managed to "force" myself in buying a Kickstarter game at a retail price and I doubt that would change.

Generally we also prefer to buy new games instead of investing too much on new content for games we have already (unless it is a Kickstar or we buy already the used game with expansions). Aeon's end may be one of the rare exception but I wouldn't bet on it.

Due to working reasons my wife and I are also often distant, and we are already struggling in playing some games from our collection which we like. Furthermore we have just invested quite a lot on Joan of Arc which is expected to take a lot of attention from December 2018 (at least due the money we spent on it...).

To sum up I am more interested in Aeon's End: legacy as single stand alone game (at least as starting point). I agree with you it would be interesting to try the previous versions before the Kickstarter but I am not sure we will manage. Are there any gamers who have the game and can play it at "La Table" or the "Outpost" in Brussels (Belgium) ? laugh

 
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Can you make it to Paris, France?

Otherwise: Aeon's End, like Sentinels of the Multiverse, is a game where the more content you have, the more diversity you have. Since you can select different starting mages and supply cards (the cards you buy during the game), that means that you have that many possibilities in your fight against even the simplest Nemesis (Rageborne in that case.)
And even once you're done with him on normal difficulty, there is a bunch of rules you can tweak to make your experience worthwhile: increased difficulty, hard mode, and the dreaded (but very interesting) Extinction Mode.
So the game is already very replayable on its own, but gets better as you add expansion.
Being the kind of guy who plays his games a lot, I value expansions as much as if not above new games altogether, though.

As for Legacy, we don't know yet how much replayable the new content will be, and aside from it being 70% of the content and the mages you've built being usable in a regular game, we don't know if there will be new breach mages to play with either. If it's just the ones you've crafted, then as a stand-alone it may get stale. If it's not, or if stretch-goals add some more, then it's that much value.

With the 6 expansions it's about 20 mages there are out there though. I'm personally far from having mastered most of them, I've got my favorites that come out more often. I also challenge myself with pure solo play and extinction modes, and I log plays on this game like crazy!

War Eternal has more content, but keep in mind that it's harder and more complex than base Aeon's End.

If you go the Legacy route, going back to regular Aeon's End might feel a bit underwhelming too
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I'd like to see a version down the road with an area control board of Gravehold.
 
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Mithrandir82 wrote:
From my understanding the Legacy version is also a stand alone game, is there a particular reason why we should start with the older versions and risk to miss the (more convenient and appealing) Kickstarter ?

Because you don't like Legacy games? Why would you prefer the legacy version over the established pre-existing versions? I mean, the Legacy version doesn't even exist. In a month or so you'll be given the option of handing over money in the hopes of getting the game sometime in the future. In a year if you're lucky, never if unlucky.

You can buy War Eternal right now and as a bonus it doesn't have any Legacy elements, which you've already stated you dislike. I have no idea why you would want to skip the version that is better suited for your interests in order to jump through all the hoops of a KS to get a version that is less suited to your likes.

In other words, the KS is less convenient (can't just be bought and received like War Eternal) and less appealing (it's a Legacy game and you don't like Legacy games).
 
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chearns wrote:
Because you don't like Legacy games? Why would you prefer the legacy version over the established pre-existing versions? I mean, the Legacy version doesn't even exist. In a month or so you'll be given the option of handing over money in the hopes of getting the game sometime in the future. In a year if you're lucky, never if unlucky.

You can buy War Eternal right now and as a bonus it doesn't have any Legacy elements, which you've already stated you dislike. I have no idea why you would want to skip the version that is better suited for your interests in order to jump through all the hoops of a KS to get a version that is less suited to your likes.

In other words, the KS is less convenient (can't just be bought and received like War Eternal) and less appealing (it's a Legacy game and you don't like Legacy games).


More like 6 months, with the excitement of being part of a successful campaign and good community, and the chance to grab the KS exclusive loot from the previous campaign + the hard to get Nameless and Outer Dark expansions.
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chearns wrote:
Because you don't like Legacy games? Why would you prefer the legacy version over the established pre-existing versions? I mean, the Legacy version doesn't even exist.

You can buy War Eternal right now and as a bonus it doesn't have any Legacy elements, which you've already stated you dislike. I have no idea why you would want to skip the version that is better suited for your interests in order to jump through all the hoops of a KS to get a version that is less suited to your likes.


It seems I haven't expressed my thoughts clearly enough.

Indeed I am not a big fan of ripping cards or permanent changes to components which are often in legacy games. But I don't think all the legacy games have necessarily to be like this. Many gamers consider Gloomhaven a legacy game but many gamers are also taking advantage of the possibility of resetting the game without permanently modify it. You could argue that wasn't the original intention of the designer but I think the legacy concept, being relatively recent, has no so strict rules.

Furthermore, I am hoping that the legacy aspect will bring with it a more thematic/adventure aspect which would be a plus for us. The strength of the game relies probably in its single shot games but I would probably trade a bit of it to see the characters levelling and progression.

I am a total newcomer in this game series and this could end up in a disaster. I know for sure I would consider crazy to apply the legacy concept to other games (like Mage Knight the Board Game) which I consider perfect in their original design. Still, coming from the disappointment for the premature "killing" of Warhammer Quest, I am really interested in which directions Aeon's End will take.
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Mithrandir82 wrote:
chearns wrote:
Because you don't like Legacy games? Why would you prefer the legacy version over the established pre-existing versions? I mean, the Legacy version doesn't even exist.

You can buy War Eternal right now and as a bonus it doesn't have any Legacy elements, which you've already stated you dislike. I have no idea why you would want to skip the version that is better suited for your interests in order to jump through all the hoops of a KS to get a version that is less suited to your likes.


It seems I haven't expressed my thoughts clearly enough.

Indeed I am not a big fan of ripping cards or permanent changes to components which are often in legacy games. But I don't think all the legacy games have necessarily to be like this. Many gamers consider Gloomhaven a legacy game but many gamers are also taking advantage of the possibility of resetting the game without permanently modify it. You could argue that wasn't the original intention of the designer but I think the legacy concept, being relatively recent, has no so strict rules.

Furthermore, I am hoping that the legacy aspect will bring with it a more thematic/adventure aspect which would be a plus for us. The strength of the game relies probably in its single shot games but I would probably trade a bit of it to see the characters levelling and progression.

I am a total newcomer in this game series and this could end up in a disaster. I know for sure I would consider crazy to apply the legacy concept to other games (like Mage Knight the Board Game) which I consider perfect in their original design. Still, coming from the disappointment for the premature "killing" of Warhammer Quest, I am really interested in which directions Aeon's End will take.


A couple things. First of all, you won't be able to avoid the permanent changes in this one, since one of the main goals is to start with a weak character and at the end of the campaign create a custom character equal in power to the ones from the other versions of the game. While cool, it is only cool, if you like the game in the first place.

Second you keep mentioning wanting a "feeling of adventure." I should warn you right there--that is not what this game is. It isn't an adventure game. You aren't powerful heroes delving into dungeons to fight monsters. It's theme is more of a tower defense. You are the last remnants of a dying humanity trying to stave off disaster for one more day. You are desparently trying to hold off an overpowered monster long enough to gain power enough to defeat it, all the way taking damage and homing you beat him before you and the city die. I don't think that's all all the sort of thing you are looking for, although I might be wrong.

I will have to echo what everyone else is saying and what you seem to be intent on ignoring. Don't jump in this kickstarter. Buy one of the base sets first and see if you actually like the game first. Or maybe find someone else to play it with. Otherwise you end up stuck with a game you don't like and which you can't resell because of the Legacy elements.
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Daniel, I agree with most of your post, but not on the tower defense comparison. I think it could be misleading, in that you don't set up defenses the monster walks in.
I'd compare it to a boss fight instead, in which you have to care not just for your own health, but that of your settlement as well, as you fight and try to contain a gigantic monster and its minions.
You're clearly overpowered and build up during the fight, but so does the boss.
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Thanks everybody for your feedback.

It seems most of you think the legacy version is not suitable at all for new players (or gamers not so interested in a permanent legacy system).

Thus I will probably follow your suggestion and I will skip this KS.

Good luck with the campaign !!
 
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Razoupaf wrote:
Daniel, I agree with most of your post, but not on the tower defense comparison. I think it could be misleading, in that you don't set up defenses the monster walks in.
I'd compare it to a boss fight instead, in which you have to care not just for your own health, but that of your settlement as well, as you fight and try to contain a gigantic monster and its minions.
You're clearly overpowered and build up during the fight, but so does the boss.


I meant the theme rather than the gameplay. But your boss fight comparison is pretty good too. Your characters ARE the defense in this case, with the little minions smashing into you constantly.. Since the OP was looking for an adventure style game, I was just trying to find a way to explain that this wasn't it without actually going into gameplay, since he seemed more interested in theme that specifics. It's not actually a tower defense game by any means. It IS a boss fight though.

Mithrandir82 wrote:
Thanks everybody for your feedback.

It seems most of you think the legacy version is not suitable at all for new players (or gamers not so interested in a permanent legacy system).


I think for new players who already like both deckbuilders and legacy games, this would be a great jumping on point. You were looking for something very different than what this game has to offer though. Have you tried the Shadowrun card game? That might actually be closer to what you are looking for.
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I can tell you that it is a great entry point.

Keep an eye on the campaign, maybe there will be a pledge level that lets you gain the previous expansions.
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Razoupaf wrote:
I can tell you that it is a great entry point.

Keep an eye on the campaign, maybe there will be a pledge level that lets you gain the previous expansions.


And now that's it's live, it turns out that there are several.
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catwhowalksbyhimself wrote:
Razoupaf wrote:
I can tell you that it is a great entry point.

Keep an eye on the campaign, maybe there will be a pledge level that lets you gain the previous expansions.


And now that's it's live, it turns out that there are several.


I have noticed it, and now I am more seriously considering AEEW.

I know I have created some misunderstandings with my concept of "adventure" but, if I would have to choose, my preferences would go to a highly replayable monster killing games rather than an a more thematic but one shot adventure game which would demand for additional purchases to be kept "alive". Also because I really prefer to invest in new games rather than expansions). That's why even Dragonfire (with a setting I like a lot) won t work for us.

But AEEW could work (even if I won t have the Stretch Goals but only the promos from the previous campaign), as Thunderstone (which was even less thematic and more mechanic) did in the past,

So thanks again everybody, I will keep an eye on the campaign, and check with my best game buddy/wife if we could jump together on another KS.
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Mithrandir82 wrote:
But AEEW could work (even if I won t have the Stretch Goals but only the promos from the previous campaign)


You will if you get The Nameless and The Outer Dark.
You'll only miss like 9 Nemesis basic cards, which doesn't matter much.
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Thanks again.

Still it seems to me that I have to buy legacy in order to be able to buy AEWE. I cannot order AEWE only in this KE. Am I correct ?

In other KS (e.g. Joan of Arc) you had an access fee (e.g. 1$) which allows you to select whatever additional purchases after (even without buying the core game). That doesn't seem to be the case for this KS.

Thanks again for your feedback and sorry if this is a silly question.
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There is no option to pledge without getting Legacy.
There will be no pledge manager.
So yes, if you want War Eternal through the KS, you have to get Legacy.

If you only want War Eternal you have to go through retail, second-hand, or through IBC directly.
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