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Pendragon: The Fall of Roman Britain» Forums » Rules

Subject: Raid Sequence Clarification Required rss

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Paul Norell
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Saxons raid Parisi and decide to make a surprise attack on the town of Ratae. The Dux and Militia units there decide to force a battle, but the Saxons evade (which they can do since they are not ravaging).

The Saxons now attempt a coup de main on Ratae.

Question: Can the Dux and Militia units withdraw into the town even though they tried to force a battle earlier?

Thanks.
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Niko
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pnorell wrote:
Saxons raid Parisi and decide to make a surprise attack on the town of Ratae. The Dux and Militia units there decide to force a battle, but the Saxons evade (which they can do since they are not ravaging).

The Saxons now attempt a coup de main on Ratae.

Question: Can the Dux and Militia units withdraw into the town even though they tried to force a battle earlier?

Thanks.
Don't have the rules in front of me to check, but iirc you can only force battle as part of Ravage, not in a regular raid.
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Ryan Keane
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There are several errors here. In short, a successful evade always ends the whole battle - you can't come back and assault. And defending units have to either withdraw or participate in field battle - they can't do both (unless that event is in effect that allows cavalry to charge then withdraw).

***************
Dux/Civ cannot initiate a battle with Raiders from a Raid+Surprise. That is only the case with Ravage. The Saxons must decide to start a battle or not.

Let's assume the Saxons want to start a battle. They could roll to evade, but if they actually wanted to evade, they wouldn't have started the battle in the first place. But if you did, a successful evade ends the whole battle, not just avoids field battle - you ran off into the fens. You can't come back and assault after evading.

Ok, so back to the battle. If some or all of the Dux/Militia decide not to withdraw, then there is a field battle. Take losses in sequence.

Now the surviving raiders can decide to assault. There will very unlikely be any Dux/Civ left in the field if the Raiders have a chance at assaulting, but if there were, those Dux/Civ couldn't withdraw - too late. Roll for Coup de Main - if successful skip Escalade losses; if not, take those losses. Then apply storm losses to raiders and withdrawn+garrison.

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Paul Norell
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Thanks for your detailed clarification. It certainly helps get my head around the battle sequence.
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Scott D
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Don't have the rules in front of me to check, but iirc you can only force battle as part of Ravage, not in a regular raid.

You can force Battle in the Surprise space before the Raiders Plunder.

Side note: This strikes me as thematically wonky: if the Saxons or Scotti are “surprising” the locals, why can the local fighting men force a Battle first? Perhaps Marc can weigh in?
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Scott D
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One final point of clarification: Raiders in a Surprise space are not required to Assault. If they choose to Assault, they may use Coup de Main. However, if they fail the Coup de Main roll, they must continue with the rest of the Assault procedure, even if this results in them getting slaughtered. So be careful when choosing to Assault with Coup de Main.
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Marc Gouyon-Rety
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Ryan Keane wrote:
There are several errors here. In short, a successful evade always ends the whole battle - you can't come back and assault. And defending units have to either withdraw or participate in field battle - they can't do both (unless that event is in effect that allows cavalry to charge then withdraw).

***************
Dux/Civ cannot initiate a battle with Raiders from a Raid+Surprise. That is only the case with Ravage. The Saxons must decide to start a battle or not.

Let's assume the Saxons want to start a battle. They could roll to evade, but if they actually wanted to evade, they wouldn't have started the battle in the first place. But if you did, a successful evade ends the whole battle, not just avoids field battle - you ran off into the fens. You can't come back and assault after evading.

Ok, so back to the battle. If some or all of the Dux/Militia decide not to withdraw, then there is a field battle. Take losses in sequence.

Now the surviving raiders can decide to assault. There will very unlikely be any Dux/Civ left in the field if the Raiders have a chance at assaulting, but if there were, those Dux/Civ couldn't withdraw - too late. Roll for Coup de Main - if successful skip Escalade losses; if not, take those losses. Then apply storm losses to raiders and withdrawn+garrison.

This is essentially correct except that, as Scott mentioned, the defenders can force a Battle (before plundering takes place) in case of a Deep Raid (which is possible through Surprise).
Also, if defending units survive the Field Battle, the question of whether they could withdraw in the stronghold is pointless since the attackers cannot Assault if there is any (non-Evading) defending unit remaining in the field.
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Marc Gouyon-Rety
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Scottland wrote:
Side note: This strikes me as thematically wonky: if the Saxons or Scotti are “surprising” the locals, why can the local fighting men force a Battle first? Perhaps Marc can weigh in?
Well, this is really a product of having merged two related but originally different things into one during development: originally, there was a distinct barbarian Feat called Deep Raid, which I eventually merged into Surprise to free a slot for another, faction-specific, Feat.
So in effect, a Surprise Raid in a coastal/adjacent space is what you would call Tactical Surprise, where a Surprise (Deep) Raid into a one-beyond-coastal/adjacent space is a Strategic Surprise: the defenders may not have been expecting an attack, but the distance still gives them time to mobilize if they want to (which they often don't, or the barbarians would not have selected that space as a Deep Raid target...)
Hope this helps
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