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Subject: Will the replacement cards be offered without the books? rss

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Susan K
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I'm not interested in these books at all. My reading list is already ridiculously long with books I want to read. But I didn't realize these cards actually aren't just alt art but play differently also. It's kind of like getting entirely different investigators. Will they be offered separately?

With all of the promos this game is offering it feels like ffg doesn't mind the secondary markets that are popping up for the exclusives in this game. I just saw an alt art Leo de Luca for $150 on eBay. Kind of feels like this game is veering ever so slightly away from an lcg to a ccg.
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James J
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I do not believe they have any intentions of offering these separately.

This is still nothing like a CCG. The cards are always going to be available from retail in the non-random book. The most you'd have to pay aftermarket is the price of the book+cards but you'd obviously expect it to be less.

I understand where you're coming from, though, and you're certainly not the first to raise the question of whether this is "right". As I've said previously, would you feel "scammed" by FFG if they simply never offered these? I imagine not (but maybe you do feel like FFG aren't putting out enough investigators). The thing is, even though they have offered them, you can pretend they don't exist. They don't change anything that wouldn't be the case if they simply hadn't created them, and I am 99% sure we wouldn't be having a discussion about "FFG should offer more alt cards for investigators!" because that's what this boils down to - you only "need" these cards if you feel there isn't enough variety anyway.
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The rwinder
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I wouldn't count on seeing them in another format. The early articles about the books suggested the cards would be exclusive to the novels. So if we trust that's true, we all have to decide whether 15+ dollars is a worthy price for a new investigator (presuming purchasers don't want the novels).

At this point, I'm more interested to know if anyone thinks the books are worth the money. I've not seen anyone be especially effusive about the "Hour of the Huntress" book, and I haven't seen any feedback on the "Ire of the Void" book.

And while I'm thinking about the topic again, I had really hoped they would make investigator-based expansions like this but with a specific scenario about that investigator (rather than repeat all that, I talked about it here: "Personal Stories for the Investigators"). But I guess that's too difficult to pull off when compared with pairing some new investigator cards with a book.
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Susan K
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I was drawn to the LCG format (or what I thought it was): core set(s), deluxe expansion, and a mythos pack every month and I have a complete game. I wasn't looking forward to chasing down exclusives, promos, and now I have to buy books that I don't have the time to fit into my reading schedule. I know I don't need these cards, but the LCG format is what drew me away from CCG's and other such games in the first place.

The other thing that bothers me about the convention only exclusives is that FFG is "rewarding" the people who attend these events but some of the people they are rewarding aren't keeping the cards, many of them just want to sell them to real fans at hugely marked up prices. Some of the real fans would have gone to these events if they had the option (I live so far away from FFG HQ and Gencon that it would cost me thousands of dollars to fly there and stay there). But if I had attended I would have never sold the cards and if I did I wouldn't try to screw over people who genuinely want them.

All of that said, none of these issues are THAT big of a deal. I know I don't need the cards and this is a great game after all, and I'll keep playing it. I just wish I could get my hands on everything for it at a reasonable price. We're already spending a lot of money on this game as it is.
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I buy most of LCGs from FFG. I'd never feel bad if I had to proxy one of such cards.
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Rob Rob
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Not judging but I find the idea of people willing to pay excessive amounts of money for alt art LCG cards to be, odd. Promo or variant cards which play differently sure but $$$ simply for different art, well now you're into an entirely different geek sub-genre, "collecting."

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Susan K
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The art on The alt Leo does look nice (reminds me of twin peaks). But no way am I paying $150. But FFG wants to "reward" the guy selling it to us at this price for attending the events. I don't understand it.
 
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James J
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MarySue1980 wrote:
I was drawn to the LCG format (or what I thought it was): core set(s), deluxe expansion, and a mythos pack every month and I have a complete game. I wasn't looking forward to chasing down exclusives, promos, and now I have to buy books that I don't have the time to fit into my reading schedule. I know I don't need these cards, but the LCG format is what drew me away from CCG's and other such games in the first place.

The other thing that bothers me about the convention only exclusives is that FFG is "rewarding" the people who attend these events but some of the people they are rewarding aren't keeping the cards, many of them just want to sell them to real fans at hugely marked up prices. Some of the real fans would have gone to these events if they had the option (I live so far away from FFG HQ and Gencon that it would cost me thousands of dollars to fly there and stay there). But if I had attended I would have never sold the cards and if I did I wouldn't try to screw over people who genuinely want them.

All of that said, none of these issues are THAT big of a deal. I know I don't need the cards and this is a great game after all, and I'll keep playing it. I just wish I could get my hands on everything for it at a reasonable price. We're already spending a lot of money on this game as it is.


But why do you want everything? Because you think it'll improve your game to have literally everything over having all but one? Because you think it's almost an everything or nothing type thing? My point still stands - how would you feel if FFG simply hadn't released these cards at all? Would you feel like the game is incomplete? Bad? I don't understand why people think having options is a bad thing. This is just an option. If the option didn't exist you'd be in the same position as you can be now by just ignoring it, and not paying for it.

As for people selling things at ridiculous prices, it does upset me, to be fair. It's annoying seeing exclusives being marked up in that way (though the book exclusives are not the same - they're readily available at retail). But ultimately the only reason they can sell them for so much is because someone out there is willing to pay that price. Would it be fair, if someone willing to pay $150 missed out because everyone sold at $15 and now the only owners are people who just want to keep them? Because that's what would happen if people sold for 'reasonable' prices - everyone would buy them, and no one would sell on, and someone who was only willing to pay $15 for it would get one when someone who was willing to pay $150 didn't. It does still upset me to see people who purposefully exploit this, but once again, you don't need these promo cards. You can ignore them. This isn't CMON, your game is complete without them.
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James J
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MarySue1980 wrote:
The art on The alt Leo does look nice (reminds me of twin peaks). But no way am I paying $150. But FFG wants to "reward" the guy selling it to us at this price for attending the events. I don't understand it.


I'm sorry but you have a problem with FFG providing them with something when they're paying FFG for an event? Of course FFG are going to provide a service to them when that's, well, exactly what FFG should be doing at FFG events.
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M M
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Number of things going on here.

1: There's a number of differences between LCGs and CCGs and especially between co-op's LCGs such as Arkham vs competitive CCG's such as Magic. If you're doing a co-op, not having certain cards makes it more difficult or a different experience for you, but it doesn't disadvantage you in winning, especially in a game where you can adjust the difficulty yourself.

2: The LCG experience varies wildly. Someone may buy the entire current collection, or maybe the entire campaign, before starting it. So then will use all of the cards from the campaign when starting it. Others may buy and play them as they come out so be working with a more limited set. When people use different investigators, that opens up and closes a huge number of cards and experiences. Not having some cards by no means you're getting some inferior experience to other people. Experiences are already incredibly different.

3: Investigator cards are the easiest to proxy. You can find high-quality images of the investigators and their personal cards online. There's no difference between the investigator card you printed out vs the official one. You can even print it onto cardstock if you want an even more official feel. Then you proxy in 2 cards to represent their special bonus or weakness. It really is the easiest thing in the world.

4: If your gripe is that you don't have alternative art, I have no idea what to tell you. Other than print it out. But there's very little sense in which you're getting deprived except in a way that you're creating for yourself.

5: Things which are special being given out at company events and conventions have been happening for decades. There's no reason this should be any different. And you can say, "Yes, well, it costs me lots of money to get there" but you don't think that's true of other people? I live in NYC and everyone who goes to GenCon of the people I know are traveling. Unless you think over 60,000 gamers are coming from local Indiana.

6: Why should someone give away something just because someone else wants it? There's a GeekMarket for people to sell games, presumably to other people who want them. Should they just give them away? Since someone else wants it? Because by and large, they sell them. At whatever price the market will let them sell them at. I don't see that as being innately wrong or even correctly criticized. I don't get a burger from McDonald's for free just because you want it.

Basically, this whole thread is premised on being upset at something which doesn't, or at least shouldn't, matter in the slightest. imo.
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Susan K
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Seems like no one is actually reading my posts. I didn't say this was a ccg. I'm pretty sure we're all aware an lcg and ccg are completely different. I said there were some elements of a ccg creeping in. Upset? Hardly. Again putting words in my mouth. I'm bringing up a valid topic of discussion about a game on a board game forum. Is that what this is for, or am I mistaken? I clearly said this wasn't a huge deal for me. I know I don't need these cards (in fact I already said as much). I know I can proxy them. Again useless information that we all know. I don't need th Carcosa cycle either. Yes it's true missing some cards doesn't necessarily lead to an inferior experience. I don't need labyrinths of lunacy.

Hell I don't NEED any of the game. I could easily proxy the whole thing. Am I gonna lose sleep over not having every investigator? No. I'd like to have them all but that's not going to happen if I have to buy a book I don't want. If it was a huge deal I'd buy the book and throw it away.

I also don't expect people to give away promos. Not sure where I said that. I know ffg has good intentions rewarding people who attend these events, but all they're doing is creating a ridiculous secondary markets where price gaugers can take advantage of people dumb enough to think 150$ for an alt art card is worth it. I'm just expressing the small frustration of people who live in Australia, for example, who wish they could attend the events but can't because of how much time /money and far away they are. I'm sorry if expressing this minor frustration bothers some people. Just because I'm bringing up an issue I have with a game doesn't mean I'm crying myself to sleep over this every night. I'm simply seeing if there are others like me who have an issue with it.

I've found in many game forums is best not to criticize anything about a game or the decisions the company makes no matter how trivial because inevitably hardcore fans of the company will rush out to defend it. But as I said I'm probably still gonna play the game, I'll just think j twice before criticizing it on this forum again.
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Carthoris Pyramidos
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rwinder wrote:
At this point, I'm more interested to know if anyone thinks the books are worth the money. I've not seen anyone be especially effusive about the "Hour of the Huntress" book, and I haven't seen any feedback on the "Ire of the Void" book.

I liked Hour of the Huntress pretty well, and I found the book itself more worthwhile than the cards. I've just finished reading Ire of the Void, and I'll be posting a full review soon.
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Rupert Cullum
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Carthoris wrote:
rwinder wrote:
At this point, I'm more interested to know if anyone thinks the books are worth the money. I've not seen anyone be especially effusive about the "Hour of the Huntress" book, and I haven't seen any feedback on the "Ire of the Void" book.

I liked Hour of the Huntress pretty well, and I found the book itself more worthwhile than the cards. I've just finished reading Ire of the Void, and I'll be posting a full review soon.


Me too. Hour of the Huntress was a fun read, and Ire of the Void is next on the reading pile. I have no complaints about the books, but obviously it's a matter of opinion.

Not sure I'd buy them just for the cards. I found Jenny's alt cards to be rather ho-hum and can't see me ever choosing them over the originals. The Norman Withers cards are welcome and I intend to use this for my upcoming Carcosa campaign.
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Bern Godfrey
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Carthoris wrote:
rwinder wrote:
At this point, I'm more interested to know if anyone thinks the books are worth the money. I've not seen anyone be especially effusive about the "Hour of the Huntress" book, and I haven't seen any feedback on the "Ire of the Void" book.

I liked Hour of the Huntress pretty well, and I found the book itself more worthwhile than the cards. I've just finished reading Ire of the Void, and I'll be posting a full review soon.


I liked both, Huntress had a high tempo, but lacked in depth. Ire I thought started slowly, but picked up midread and had an excellent last 60 or so pages, very eye opening. Sorry, no spoilers.
 
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Rupertc wrote:
Carthoris wrote:
rwinder wrote:
At this point, I'm more interested to know if anyone thinks the books are worth the money. I've not seen anyone be especially effusive about the "Hour of the Huntress" book, and I haven't seen any feedback on the "Ire of the Void" book.

I liked Hour of the Huntress pretty well, and I found the book itself more worthwhile than the cards. I've just finished reading Ire of the Void, and I'll be posting a full review soon.


Me too. Hour of the Huntress was a fun read, and Ire of the Void is next on the reading pile. I have no complaints about the books, but obviously it's a matter of opinion.

Not sure I'd buy them just for the cards. I found Jenny's alt cards to be rather ho-hum and can't see me ever choosing them over the originals. The Norman Withers cards are welcome and I intend to use this for my upcoming Carcosa campaign.


I really like the IDEA of the Green Man Medallion, but in practice, it does leave you a little more vulnerable than you can afford if you want to take advantage of it. The action to play the card and the multiple resources can really slow you down.
 
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Vander Dlonk
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It’s not fair that I am unable to see Uluru/Ayers Rock or the Sidney Opera House without spending thousands of dollars to travel there. Real travel fans should have easy, cheap access to these marvels. Price-gouging airlines should cut their prices to whatever I think they should charge. Of course, there are lots of closer, cheaper places I could visit, but I want what I want.
 
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Richard Pickman
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I've read both Hour of the Huntress and Ire of the Void. Fun but nothing remarkable. I can understand that some people will oppose this distribution model (the manufacturer selling one thing, but the buyer has to pay for a whole other thing in order to get it), but really, the replacement cards are completely optional. At the end of the day, out of all the material that FFG puts out for this lifestyle game, the replacement cards are only one tiny part.

That said--Personally, I appreciate the idea of replacement cards. Particularly if you add them into the deck (rather than removing the original set), the replacement cards can deepen the experience of role-playing the investigator, tying the character's back story even more to the mechanics of playing the character in the game. Jenny with both sets of signature cards is twice as Jenny.
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James J
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MarySue1980 wrote:
but all they're doing is creating a ridiculous secondary markets where price gaugers can take advantage of people dumb enough to think 150$ for an alt art card is worth it.

I don't think saying it's 'all' they're doing is fair - there are plenty of people who attend and receive these that won't be selling on.
But I think here you've sort of hit the nail on the head - your problem isn't with FFG or with scalpers, really, it's with people who are 'dumb' enough to pay that much money. If they didn't exist, we could all have promos for reasonable prices.

MarySue1980 wrote:
I'm just expressing the small frustration of people who live in Australia, for example, who wish they could attend the events but can't because of how much time /money and far away they are. I'm sorry if expressing this minor frustration bothers some people. Just because I'm bringing up an issue I have with a game doesn't mean I'm crying myself to sleep over this every night. I'm simply seeing if there are others like me who have an issue with it.

I get that, I do, I'm from the UK and it would also cost a bomb to get over to the US for these events. Can I ask what you'd like as an alternative? That FFG release all promos as a pack some time down the line?

MarySue1980 wrote:
I've found in many game forums is best not to criticize anything about a game or the decisions the company makes no matter how trivial because inevitably hardcore fans of the company will rush out to defend it. But as I said I'm probably still gonna play the game, I'll just think j twice before criticizing it on this forum again.

This is not fair. What do you want? Everyone to turn up and agree with you? Like you say, you wanted to open up a discussion. It is inevitable people will disagree with you. And at times more people will disagree with you than agree with you. Implying it's just because we're 'blinded' by being a hardcore fan is basically saying you're dismissing us not because of what we said, but because we disagree with you.

My original post also wasn't really meant to disagree with you, but rather try and point out that if they didn't exist you wouldn't care, so don't let yourself get annoyed by it! (It's how I cope with not having it all...)
 
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Robbie M.
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Some people sell their promos as a way to help pay for the cost of the trip. Seems like a win-win.
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Ken Brown
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The alt arts are vanity cards, and they’re worth only what you’re willing to pay for them (and what someone is willing to accept for them).

The book cards are not quite the same. It isn’t CCGish; the problem you’re having with them is that you value the book at $0 and think that $15 is too much for two new cards and a pair of alt arts. It is certainly much more expensive than other cards in this game. Norman is a little bit of a special case, since technically he’s also early access, but otherwise these cards only add some small degree of flexibility to investigators who are already perfectly useable.

The good news is that if you want these, they won’t be especially hard to find, like regular promos might be. For myself, I’m a completionist, but fortunately that doesn’t extend to alt art cards. So these books were basically two very expensive cards each (again, Norman is a little early access too). But I enjoy the game and the lore, and while these aren’t high on my reading list, one day if I’m bored and not interested in playing the game right then, I can crack one of these for a dose of pulpy fun for an afternoon. I’ve certainly spent more on less entertaining uses of my time.
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MarySue1980 wrote:
I wasn't looking forward to chasing down exclusives, promos, and now I have to buy books that I don't have the time to fit into my reading schedule.

Then don't?

Problem solved.
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PKDuke wrote:
MarySue1980 wrote:
I wasn't looking forward to chasing down exclusives, promos, and now I have to buy books that I don't have the time to fit into my reading schedule.

Then don't?

Problem solved.


Or do and sell the book or give it to a friend who doesn't care about the cards.
 
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Paul Chamberland
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rwinder wrote:
At this point, I'm more interested to know if anyone thinks the books are worth the money. I've not seen anyone be especially effusive about the "Hour of the Huntress" book, and I haven't seen any feedback on the "Ire of the Void" book.


The books are interesting. Each tells the story of how the character got started investigating the Mythos and explain the significance of their character specific cards. Think of each book as a character bio expanded into a novella.

That said, without the promos the books wouldn't sell.
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Stephen Parkes
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This thread is so BGG. I have no further comment.
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