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Pendragon: The Fall of Roman Britain» Forums » Rules

Subject: Shift in Imperium and Victory during Epoch Round rss

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Ken Chin
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Situation:
At the start of Epoch Round, Imperium is at "Roman Rule" / "Civilian Dominance".
In the Imperium Phase (6.2), Imperium shifts to "Autonomy" / "Military Dominance".
Question:
In the Victory Phase (6.3), "Automony" / "Military Dominance" would be used to determine if Dux or Civitates achieve their Victory condition, correct?
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Oerjan Ariander
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Correct.

Regards,
Oerjan
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Yes indeed: always consider the Imperium status current to the step or phase you are playing. Actually, this is why the Epoch Round's Phases are sequenced the way they are: Annona and Imperium Phases BEFORE Victory check, Epoch Event, Upkeep and Recovery AFTER...
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Niko
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Question for Marc: why is the Briton control cutoff to shift to autonomy lower than the Briton control requirement for the civitates to win? It seems to me that's the only time where a faction can win by doing just badly enough since all other cutoffs are lower than the victory requirement after the shift.

Of course the civitates still need to make sure they have enough wealth to maintain civilian dominance after the shift to autonomy so it is by no means easy to sneak in a victory like that.
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Max Bentovim
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So I just screwed this one rule up and blew up a whole game today.

First time really getting the game out of the box, we play through the first Epoch.

It goes terribly for the British. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong, bad events, great rolls by the Barbarians, etc etc.

By the time the Epoch hits there are three non-Foederated settlements on the board, the Dux has zero prestige, it's a mess. Prosperity is down to 52 (!), Control is down only to 34 due to two timely refugee resettlements.

Epoch hits, Civitates convert to wealth and have 10, Imperium shifts down to Autonomy.

IMPORTANT: we missed the "halve wealth and prestige" bit.

So we shift to Civilian Dominance, with Autonomy andControl over 34...game over. Civitates win.

It wasn't until I rechecked the rules hour later did I notice that this mistake short-circuited our whole session.

Moral of the story: read the rules very, very carefully! I spent hours puzzling as to how that could happen, it didn't make sense, etc, but of course for the Civitates to have 20 wealth, not just 10, after such a rough first campaign would've been very, very unlikely.

Oh well. Now we know for next time.
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Well, the main rationale is that the Civitates WANT Autonomy, it is their preferred Imperium status (ideally with Civilian Dominance, of course), so this is where their sweet spot is. Now, as has been pointed out, they also need Dominance, so it is essentially impossible for them (barring either a very unlikely turn of events, or wholly incompetent play by all 3 other factions) to get both early. And for them to deliberately let Control down to win that way is rather fiddly and prone for catastrophe. In my experience, a Civitates player should never strive for lower Control (though it is sometimes wise to refrain from reestablishing too much Control to avoid becoming too obvious a target). So indeed this "gap" where a fall to Autonomy places the Civitates in winning position Control-wise can look surprising, but the Dominance condition should balance this. At least it has never been an issue in play testing. Should it prove an achievable loophole, maybe I will have to revise this... Let me know if this becomes an issue.
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Niko
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GouyonRety wrote:
Well, the main rationale is that the Civitates WANT Autonomy, it is their preferred Imperium status (ideally with Civilian Dominance, of course), so this is where their sweet spot is. Now, as has been pointed out, they also need Dominance, so it is essentially impossible for them (barring either a very unlikely turn of events, or wholly incompetent play by all 3 other factions) to get both early. And for them to deliberately let Control down to win that way is rather fiddly and prone for catastrophe. In my experience, a Civitates player should never strive for lower Control (though it is sometimes wise to refrain from reestablishing too much Control to avoid becoming too obvious a target). So indeed this "gap" where a fall to Autonomy places the Civitates in winning position Control-wise can look surprising, but the Dominance condition should balance this. At least it has never been an issue in play testing. Should it prove an achievable loophole, maybe I will have to revise this... Let me know if this becomes an issue.
Well, it almost happened during my first playthrough as civitates against the bots.
Early event to shift to civilian dominance and managed to hang on to enough wealth to maintain it during the shift. Only reason I didn't win during the second epoch round was that I was still learning details (e.g. the exact values needed for shifts and victory) as I went and didn't even realize that such a possibility existed. Missed the win by 1 control...

Shifting to civilian dominance as the first event is not going to be a usual occurrence though so I agree with you that it won't occur too often and can still be stopped by other players.
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Scott D
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Shifting to civilian dominance as the first event is not going to be a usual occurrence though so I agree with you that it won't occur too often and can still be stopped by other players.

I’m not sure. So far, I’m 2-for-3 on a shift occurring either directly or indirectly (+10 Wealth) through Event within the first two Epochs.
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Max Bentovim
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:

Shifting to civilian dominance as the first event is not going to be a usual occurrence though so I agree with you that it won't occur too often and can still be stopped by other players.


I think experienced players is the key.
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Scottland wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
Shifting to civilian dominance as the first event is not going to be a usual occurrence though so I agree with you that it won't occur too often and can still be stopped by other players.

I’m not sure. So far, I’m 2-for-3 on a shift occurring either directly or indirectly (+10 Wealth) through Event within the first two Epochs.
By the end of the 2nd Epoch, typically, either Dux Prestige is quite high, or Briton Control is way reduced
 
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Chris Laudermilk
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GouyonRety wrote:
Well, the main rationale is that the Civitates WANT Autonomy, it is their preferred Imperium status (ideally with Civilian Dominance, of course), so this is where their sweet spot is. Now, as has been pointed out, they also need Dominance, so it is essentially impossible for them (barring either a very unlikely turn of events, or wholly incompetent play by all 3 other factions) to get both early. And for them to deliberately let Control down to win that way is rather fiddly and prone for catastrophe. In my experience, a Civitates player should never strive for lower Control (though it is sometimes wise to refrain from reestablishing too much Control to avoid becoming too obvious a target). So indeed this "gap" where a fall to Autonomy places the Civitates in winning position Control-wise can look surprising, but the Dominance condition should balance this. At least it has never been an issue in play testing. Should it prove an achievable loophole, maybe I will have to revise this... Let me know if this becomes an issue.

This kind of really subtle, nuanced approach to achieving victory is part of why I'm so taken with this game. Now that I have the tutorial, two solo sessions and a couple of multi-player session under my belt I'm starting to see the complex tug-of-war in board state to get to victory. In my last play I was actually able to successfully manipulate my way into a Dux victory--just barely. This game really is a masterpiece.
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Brian Hard
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GouyonRety wrote:
Well, the main rationale is that the Civitates WANT Autonomy, it is their preferred Imperium status (ideally with Civilian Dominance, of course), so this is where their sweet spot is. Now, as has been pointed out, they also need Dominance, so it is essentially impossible for them (barring either a very unlikely turn of events, or wholly incompetent play by all 3 other factions) to get both early. And for them to deliberately let Control down to win that way is rather fiddly and prone for catastrophe. In my experience, a Civitates player should never strive for lower Control (though it is sometimes wise to refrain from reestablishing too much Control to avoid becoming too obvious a target). So indeed this "gap" where a fall to Autonomy places the Civitates in winning position Control-wise can look surprising, but the Dominance condition should balance this. At least it has never been an issue in play testing. Should it prove an achievable loophole, maybe I will have to revise this... Let me know if this becomes an issue.

This is exactly what occurred on the first Epoch of my solo Dux play of The Harder They Fall. Took me completely by surprise. I managed very good naval controls with events and patrols to cut Scotti raids to almost none. Saxon bot after a few good raids and events pulled pivotal event and stole some Briton Control. But Dux kept getting hammered from Saxon plunder. Imperium went from Civ Roman Rule to Autonomy with Civitates sitting pretty with 30 Control. Hard fall indeed!
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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sentient02970 wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
Well, the main rationale is that the Civitates WANT Autonomy, it is their preferred Imperium status (ideally with Civilian Dominance, of course), so this is where their sweet spot is. Now, as has been pointed out, they also need Dominance, so it is essentially impossible for them (barring either a very unlikely turn of events, or wholly incompetent play by all 3 other factions) to get both early. And for them to deliberately let Control down to win that way is rather fiddly and prone for catastrophe. In my experience, a Civitates player should never strive for lower Control (though it is sometimes wise to refrain from reestablishing too much Control to avoid becoming too obvious a target). So indeed this "gap" where a fall to Autonomy places the Civitates in winning position Control-wise can look surprising, but the Dominance condition should balance this. At least it has never been an issue in play testing. Should it prove an achievable loophole, maybe I will have to revise this... Let me know if this becomes an issue.

This is exactly what occurred on the first Epoch of my solo Dux play of The Harder They Fall. Took me completely by surprise. I managed very good naval controls with events and patrols to cut Scotti raids to almost none. Saxon bot after a few good raids and events pulled pivotal event and stole some Briton Control. But Dux kept getting hammered from Saxon plunder. Imperium went from Civ Roman Rule to Autonomy with Civitates sitting pretty with 30 Control. Hard fall indeed!
Well, if you translate this game situation in historical terms, the military failed to protect the population from Saxon depredations and their prestige crumbled resultingly, while the stability offered by the civilian authorities gave them massive support among the population and elites...
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