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Xia: Legends of a Drift System» Forums » Rules

Subject: Kemplar II neighboring Loath rss

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Allen Herring
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We came up with a weird case where a player scanned two sectors from the same hex. One was Kemplar II and the other was Loath. This placed the Enforcer and the Scoundrel practically right next to each other.

Do I have it correctly that they'll (assuming no one gets closer) just keep taking pot shots at each other? Would the Enforcer enter Loath's boundaries if necessary to attack the Scoundrel?
 
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Jordan Booth
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The Scoundrel is a coward, it never attacks the Enforcer. (P. 16, NPC Types)

Yes, the Enforcer enters Loath to attack the Scoundrel. Do you think the cops stay out of gang territory just because it is dangerous?
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Allen Herring
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Born-of-Ashes wrote:
The Scoundrel is a coward, it never attacks the Enforcer. (P. 16, NPC Types)

Ah, missed that.

Born-of-Ashes wrote:

Yes, the Enforcer enters Loath to attack the Scoundrel. Do you think the cops stay out of gang territory just because it is dangerous?

Haha. Makes sense.


It still seems like they would just do a dance all game. As soon as one kills the other, it would respawn and they would just repeat the dance.
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Barry Miller
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What I personally would've done upon seeing the drawing Loath (assuming that was the 2nbd tile drawn) - and realizing what placing it would mean for the exact point you're making - is to draw the next tile and reshuffle Loath back into the stack.

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Doug DeMoss
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...until the Enforcer accumulates enough collected Enforcer bounty that somebody decides to knock him off to collect THAT.

I would just roll with it - it could get interesting in the mid- to late-game.
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Trogdor The Burninator
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Quote:
Yes, the Enforcer enters Loath to attack the Scoundrel. Do you think the cops stay out of gang territory just because it is dangerous?


I'm not sure if that's correct. It's not the way my group plays anyway.
The Enforcer is the system's Police. Police cannot break the law, and entering an Outlaw Planet is illegal because it results in a Bounty.

I can't find an official answer in the FAQ. Anyone?

Edit: You ARE correct.
 
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Barry Miller
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You're correct and don't need a FAQ to confirm it... it's right in the rules. ...
Page 13 (Planets) makes it clear that any ship that passes through the entrance of an outlaw planet receives a bounty. And page 16 makes it clear that the Enforcer can never have a Bounty on it. Thus, the Enforcer can never enter Loath.


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Chris J Davis
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bgm1961 wrote:

You're correct and don't need a FAQ to confirm it... it's right in the rules. ...
Page 13 (Planets) makes it clear that any ship that passes through the entrance of an outlaw planet receives a bounty. And page 16 makes it clear that the Enforcer can never have a Bounty on it. Thus, the Enforcer can never enter Loath.




That doesn't necessarily follow. It could still mean that the Enforcer can enter Loath - you just don't put the bounty on him.
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Barry Miller
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bleached_lizard wrote:
That doesn't necessarily follow. It could still mean that the Enforcer can enter Loath - you just don't put the bounty on him.

Well I guess you could do it that way if you want to break the rules of the game. But it's your game, so go for it. (Rulebook, page 13, "Planets").

Now if your comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, then I apologize for not taking it that way.

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Chris J Davis
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bgm1961 wrote:

bleached_lizard wrote:
That doesn't necessarily follow. It could still mean that the Enforcer can enter Loath - you just don't put the bounty on him.

Well I guess you could do it that way if you want to break the rules of the game. But it's your game, so go for it. (Rulebook, page 13, "Planets").


Which rule is it breaking?
 
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Barry Miller
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From Rulebook, page 13, "Planets":

"Outlaw (red border): Any Innocent ship (a ship without a Bounty) that passes through the Planetary Entrance receives +1,000 Bounty."

And, from Page 16, "Enforcer":

"The Enforcer can never have a Bounty on it."

Logic:
So since NPCs will avoid planetary shields (rulebook, page 16), then the only way for the Enforcer to get to Loath is through it's red-bordered Planetary Entrance. And since doing so will result in the Enforcer receiving a Bounty, then the Enforcer is not allowed to pass through the entrance. Because according to page 16, the Enforcer is prohibited from ever having a Bounty.

Is my logic faulty? (a serious question... am not trying to be snarky)

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Scott Lewis
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I would interpret it (and I could swear it was ruled somewhere) that the "cannot have a bounty" simply supersedes the "receive a bounty" rule, rather than blocks the movement outright. The Enforcer would still go in the planetary entrance but his rule would trump the normal rule and he receives no bounty.
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Chris J Davis
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bgm1961 wrote:

From Rulebook, page 13, "Planets":

"Outlaw (red border): Any Innocent ship (a ship without a Bounty) that passes through the Planetary Entrance receives +1,000 Bounty."

And, from Page 16, "Enforcer":

"The Enforcer can never have a Bounty on it."

Logic:
So since NPCs will avoid planetary shields (rulebook, page 16), then the only way for the Enforcer to get to Loath is through it's red-bordered Planetary Entrance. And since doing so will result in the Enforcer receiving a Bounty, then the Enforcer is not allowed to pass through the entrance. Because according to page 16, the Enforcer is prohibited from ever having a Bounty.

Is my logic faulty? (a serious question... am not trying to be snarky)



Yes, your logic is faulty because you're failing to take into account the fact that in board games (all board game that I can think of, anyway) component-specific rules override general rules (and, as a side note, it's usually not a good idea to try to extrapolate rules that don't explicitly exist).

The rules don't say "the Enforcer cannot enter Loath" or even "the Enforcer cannot do anything that would cause him to receive a bounty". They say "the Enforcer can never have a bounty". So that rule overrides the usual rule for receiving a bounty from entering outlaw planets; so he can enter - he just doesn't receive the bounty for it.
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Barry Miller
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Yeah, I see what you guys are saying, and my logic does fit the mold of false reasoning. And I would also tend to lean toward your argument.

But still, I feel that my reasoning is valid and reasonable enough to put this before a jury (and hopefully an official ruling).



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Trogdor The Burninator
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For argument's sake, lets say the following occurs:
- Loath is right beside Kemplar II
- All players currently have a bounty
- Closest Outlaw ship, to the Enforcer, is Scoundrel
- Merchant isn't spawned because there's no second trade-route planet yet

Therefore,
- Scoundrel has no target so parks itself just inside the planetary gate of Loath
- Enforcer Targets Scoundrel, flies inside Loath's atmosphere and positions itself 2 spaces away (for missile range)
- Enforcer fires a missile continually every round while Scoundrel just sits there and takes it until obliterated

The above scenario is unlikely, but CAN happen.

I've read everyone's valid points, but am still sticking with:
Quote:
The Enforcer is the system's Police. Police cannot break the law, and entering an Outlaw Planet is illegal because it results in a Bounty.

So instead of moving inside Loath, Enforcer positions itself just outside the Planetary Gate and waits patiently for the Outlaw ship to exit, Unless another Outlaw ship presents itself within the Enforcer's targeting range (less than 2 sectors away I believe).

I think this offers more balance to game-play, especially at the beginning of the game, because an Outlaw Tier I ship (equipped with a crappy engine and possibly no shield) will have a better chance to hide from the Enforcer's missiles.

Edit: Enforcer CAN enter an Outlaw Planet and ignores the Bounty.
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Trogdor The Burninator
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ALSO, what are the odds? I first read this thread yesterday, and just today the following happened (for real, no BS):

-started an introductory game, using the Ember's expansion, to someone who's never played Xia before
-one of the 2 starting sectors, adjacent to Nyr, was Dorovan V
-set FP track to 5 points and let the novice start first
-his spawn point was positioned on the sector (forget which one) so that he was able to scan 2 sectors without moving
-first scan: Loath; spawned Scoundrel
-second scan: Kemplar II; spawned Enforcer
-since Kemplar II was already the 2nd Trade Route Planet needed to spawn the Merchant, he shows up too.

So I decided on DeMoss1's advice:
Quote:
I would just roll with it - it could get interesting in the mid- to late-game.

The mayhem that followed was Awesome! It was a shame that we only had time for a 5 FP game, because things got interesting right off the bat.

So from this experience I'd also recommend to roll with it, and lay down the sectors as they come. I'm also considering to artificially restart this exact scenario of sector positions, just to see how a 15-20 FP game would play out.

 
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Bruce Gazdecki
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Well, I guess my opinion is that even if the Enforcer can go onto Loath and potshot the Scoundrel to death, it's not a huge deal because when the Scoundrel respawns, he will likely be away from Loath, so the Enforcer will then go to patrol other Lawful planets and pick up a different target if they all have bounties on them.

As for whether the Enforcer can even enter Loath, I've scoured all three rulebooks and can't find a definitive answer anywhere.

I guess my best guess would be:

-The "Planets" section regarding the types only speak of the players, the NPC's are not stated anywhere. (weak)
-The NPC's aren't even brought up until 3 or 4 pages later in the rulebook. (weak)
-The Enforcer has a rule that specifically states that it can't receive a bounty. (weak, as the rule could be to not give it a bounty for destroying an innocent ship that tried to attack it first)

Therefore, I would likely play that the Enforcer can go onto Loath to target the Scoundrel if it worked out that way. It's a weak argument, even in totality, but based on the rules as given, it's the best I come up with.

I'm not sure it makes 100% sense thematically (I don't think a lone police officer would go into a crime ring's base of operations by himself) but it is what it is.
 
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Randy D

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The rules do not say that the Enforcer cannot do anything that normally earns a bounty. The rules only say that the Enforcer does not receive any bounty.

I take this to mean that the Enforcer can enter Loathe if needed, as any player ship can do, and simply does not receive a bounty for doing so.

This also makes thematic sense to me as he is the law, pursuing criminals wherever they attempt to hide.

Bruiser419 wrote:

I'm not sure it makes 100% sense thematically (I don't think a lone police officer would go into a crime ring's base of operations by himself) but it is what it is.

And an entire universe with only 1 police officer does make 100% sense thematically?

There's only 1 sheriff in this town and he takes no prisoners. You can't run or hide from him... believe me, I've tried.
 
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We've always played that an officer in pursuit will simply fly into Loath and have shoot the scoundrel.

We've also had occasions, where due to positioning the scoundrel's only route was through planetary shields to get out of its sector.

Can't recall the exact rules, but it's not that the scoundrel can't enter lawfull planets, he just can't use the gate.
Though I don't think that in pursuit he will go through the shields.. Maybe if he was attacked.
 
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Barry Miller
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Except that the rule on page 13 makes it mandatory that a ship entering an outlaw planet receives a bounty. So you just can't take it upon yourself to decide that that doesn't apply to the Enforcer. That's what I'm not getting with those of you who are saying to simply not have the Enforcer receive the Bounty. According to page 13, it must.

But then page 16 prohibits the Enforcer from having a bounty. So that's where my logic comes from to conlude that the Enforcer can't enter an Outlaw plenet.

Now I admit that the point at which my logic may have a crack is that the rule on page 16 says that the Enforcer may not "have" a bounty vs may not "receive" a bounty. I'm chalking that up to poor rules writing (sorry) and assuming the intent is that the Enforcer can never receive a bounty.

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Randy D

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bgm1961 wrote:

Except that the rule on page 13 makes it mandatory that a ship entering an outlaw planet receives a bounty. So you just can't take it upon yourself to decide that that doesn't apply to the Enforcer.


I'm not taking it upon myself, I'm letting the specific character rules do that.

Rules for specific in-game elements will often supersede the mandatory game rules. In Flash Point, the rules say it takes 2 action points to perform the Chop action, however, the specific rules for the Rescue Specialist character says that the Chop action for her only costs 1 action point. In Dominion you are allowed to buy only 1 card on your turn, but there are some cards that permit you to buy multiple cards on your turn. In Xia the rule is that ships may pass through an outlaw planet's gate, but in so doing will receive a bounty if they are innocent (currently having no bounty), however, the Enforcer's rule is that he never has a bounty.

(I mentioned Flash Point & Dominion as examples because I saw that you have them in your collection).
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Barry Miller
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You and I are simply drawing two different conclusions from the same rule, is all. And I see your point. Plus I agree that most games have elements which supersede the core rules. I'm just not seeing this being one of those cases.

All's good.

 
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Randy D

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bgm1961 wrote:

You and I are simply drawing two different conclusions from the same rule, is all. And I see your point. Plus I agree that most games have elements which supersede the core rules. I'm just not seeing this being one of those cases.

All's good.

Fair enough.cool
 
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Trogdor The Burninator
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Quote:
We've also had occasions, where due to positioning the scoundrel's only route was through planetary shields to get out of its sector.

Can't recall the exact rules, but it's not that the scoundrel can't enter lawfull planets, he just can't use the gate.
Though I don't think that in pursuit he will go through the shields.. Maybe if he was attacked.

I've come across this argument before...

From the unofficial FAQ:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1260377/unofficial-faq-aka-...

Quote:
Suicidal Scoundrel
Scenario: As the rules are written, the Scoundrel will target and approach innocents inside a Lawful planet. Therefore he will attempt to enter through the planetary border, as he is an outlaw. Is this intentional behavior?
Supporting Rules: TBD.
Ruling: As the rules are written, the Scoundrel is suicidal.


I've submitted questions to the Official FAQ to hopefully resolve this once and for all:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1800155/official-faq-update...

Until I receive an official answer, I'll continue to use the following rules because it seems to work quite well:

a) Enforcer cannot enter an Outlaw Planet

b) Scoundrel can risk entering a Lawful Planetary Shield

c) Any ship that fires upon the Enforcer will immediately gain a Bounty. This is for consistency purposes: Enforcer cannot do anything illegal. Once fired upon, the attacking ship gains a Bounty and Enforcer will retaliate. What did you expect?...You're shooting at the cops

EDIT: I've omitted c) since it's perfectly legal to attack any other ship. You only gain a bounty if you destroy a (lawful) ship. A rough system, this Xia is.

2ND EDIT: Scratched out incorrect statements.
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Derek Dyer
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You cannot rules lawyer this game. Stop trying to put specific emphasis on words, because the rulebook is not written that way.

This has come up plenty, and the Enforcer can enter Loathe.

NPC's avoid Planetary Shields, but will move through them as a last resort. Nothing on the Enforcer card indicates that it would stop outside the gate, so it either uses the entrance or as a last result must go through the shield to complete its turn.

What if the Enforcer is blocked off from the rest of the universe by the board layout? Are you saying that it cannot go through a planetary shield?

Quote:
Unreachable Sectors [pg16]: ...last resort, Planetary Shields. NPC's must apply effects of these borders in the same way a player would.
You create a catch-22 with your ruling. The rules require the Enforcer to follow certain steps, but with your ruling the game crashes if the enforcer rolls a 11-17 while going through a Planetary Shield.
 
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