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Subject: I modded Catan a lot! heres a PDF rss

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Imants Cielens
Australia
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[ImageID=https://photos.app.goo.gl/4c8KrwUlA93jA5682]I just finished making a massive PDF of some rules and compilations of ideas i have had for Catan for ages.https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mIANPSnYPiFyTp_i77OSYL_jWdJ...

I hope i can find some people in my area to play test the rules.

Cheers

Im.
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Pete
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OK, I'll give it a go.

Pete (still has players who clamor for Catan regularly)
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Momo Momo
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Gonna have to subscribe to this. I wanna give it a look over.
 
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Charlie Pite
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I'm curious since I still play a lot of Catan but the main reason for that is because people can't be bothered learning any new rules
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Kirk
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MasterCastle wrote:
Sadly my view of Catan has been destroyed...

I wanted more to see rules and changes that mitigated the heavy kingmaking aspect of the game. Why make a game that encourage smart choices and then just ends in "meaningless" kingmaking....


I think you are playing it with the wrong people...
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Pete
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I took a look at the rules last night and felt like I was missing the first two pages. You need to add on page one a list of all the components I'm going to have to gather up from Catan and its expansions, and what I'll have to add. It's a bit irritating to get to another rule, only to have to go get the pieces to execute it.

The second page needs to be a setup page. Simply telling me I get one city and one harbor (what's a harbor and how do I place it so that it's mine) is not enough. Spell out what the map needs to look like, how many of each tile I use, where the robber goes, where the various special characters go all in one place.

Pete (feeds back before playing)
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Wilbert Kiemeneij
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I know the rules, but how do you win this game?
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I agree with Pete, I probably won't be testing this any time soon, but I'm always interested in big Catan scenarios, and starting to read these rules I felt immediately lost. Sure I can take the time to figure it out, but without an introduction this isn't particularly inviting.
 
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Michael Taylor
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Not to speak for saturnkk, but here is my thought, as I agree with him. He did not say there isn't a possibility to king make in the game, he said you are playing with the wrong people, as there are tons and tons of great games that are susceptible to this. If people are not playing to win, but playing to let another person to win, that is the wrong type of people I want to play with.

MasterCastle wrote:
saturnkk wrote:
MasterCastle wrote:
Sadly my view of Catan has been destroyed...

I wanted more to see rules and changes that mitigated the heavy kingmaking aspect of the game. Why make a game that encourage smart choices and then just ends in "meaningless" kingmaking....


I think you are playing it with the wrong people...


Explain. I have had this discussion several times... common, the game usually ends up with 1-2, or 1-3 which can win towards the last rounds with 4-5 players. And then the same thing happens, again and again. Sometimes they "follow the system" with bashing on the leader (which I think is "fair"), but then they find out that they want the leader to win, so they bash on the no 2 or 3, and no 1 win, yaih! Kingmaking game galore.
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Pete
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mtaylor314 wrote:
Not to speak for saturnkk, but here is my thought, as I agree with him. He did not say there isn't a possibility to king make in the game, he said you are playing with the wrong people, as there are tons and tons of great games that are susceptible to this. If people are not playing to win, but playing to let another person to win, that is the wrong type of people I want to play with.

MasterCastle wrote:
saturnkk wrote:
MasterCastle wrote:
Sadly my view of Catan has been destroyed...

I wanted more to see rules and changes that mitigated the heavy kingmaking aspect of the game. Why make a game that encourage smart choices and then just ends in "meaningless" kingmaking....


I think you are playing it with the wrong people...


Explain. I have had this discussion several times... common, the game usually ends up with 1-2, or 1-3 which can win towards the last rounds with 4-5 players. And then the same thing happens, again and again. Sometimes they "follow the system" with bashing on the leader (which I think is "fair"), but then they find out that they want the leader to win, so they bash on the no 2 or 3, and no 1 win, yaih! Kingmaking game galore.
If you trade with someone on 8 points, unless you're getting a tremendous deal, I'm going to call you out on it. If you trade with someone on 9 points (even if the ninth point is a hidden card that's gone too long without being seen), there's a good chance you're getting punched.

Pete (is referring to the slightly harder than innocuous "on-the-shoulder" variety before y'all assume he's a violent animal)
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Michael Taylor
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Ha. I'm more of a death stare at 8 points and petty name calling at 9. whistle

plezercruz wrote:
mtaylor314 wrote:
Not to speak for saturnkk, but here is my thought, as I agree with him. He did not say there isn't a possibility to king make in the game, he said you are playing with the wrong people, as there are tons and tons of great games that are susceptible to this. If people are not playing to win, but playing to let another person to win, that is the wrong type of people I want to play with.

MasterCastle wrote:
saturnkk wrote:
MasterCastle wrote:
Sadly my view of Catan has been destroyed...

I wanted more to see rules and changes that mitigated the heavy kingmaking aspect of the game. Why make a game that encourage smart choices and then just ends in "meaningless" kingmaking....


I think you are playing it with the wrong people...


Explain. I have had this discussion several times... common, the game usually ends up with 1-2, or 1-3 which can win towards the last rounds with 4-5 players. And then the same thing happens, again and again. Sometimes they "follow the system" with bashing on the leader (which I think is "fair"), but then they find out that they want the leader to win, so they bash on the no 2 or 3, and no 1 win, yaih! Kingmaking game galore.
If you trade with someone on 8 points, unless you're getting a tremendous deal, I'm going to call you out on it. If you trade with someone on 9 points (even if the ninth point is a hidden card that's gone too long without being seen), there's a good chance you're getting punched.

Pete (is referring to the slightly harder than innocuous "on-the-shoulder" variety before y'all assume he's a violent animal)
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Kirk
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mtaylor314 wrote:
Not to speak for saturnkk, but here is my thought, as I agree with him. He did not say there isn't a possibility to king make in the game, he said you are playing with the wrong people, as there are tons and tons of great games that are susceptible to this. If people are not playing to win, but playing to let another person to win, that is the wrong type of people I want to play with.



Exactly.
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Cris Whetstone
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I'm starting to get the impression that people who complain about "leader bashing" and so-called "king making" actually are adverse to games with direct player interaction.

I think there is some preference out there for games where one can grab the lead and no one can do anything about it directly. It's a mastery of games vs mastery of game playing issue.

This or as others have said, people suffer from playing with people who are terrible.
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Pete
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WetRock wrote:
I'm starting to get the impression that people who complain about "leader bashing" and so-called "king making" actually are adverse to games with direct player interaction.

I think there is some preference out there for games where one can grab the lead and no one can directly do anything about it directly. It's a mastery of games vs mastery of game playing issue.

This or as others have said, people suffer from playing with people who are terrible.
Both kinds of games have their merits.

Catan is an inherently "social" game. You have to trade or you will be left behind, but when you do trade you may be directly allowing someone else to win. I think the illusion shared by MasterCastle and others is that this only happens late in the game (i.e. Kingmaking if you are overly generous, Leaderbashing if you're not) but it is in fact constant throughout the game. The very first roll of 7 should result in a leaderbashing move. That's the game.

Outpost is a game in which once you have a lead, its all over. And just like in Catan, the game is almost always "given away" either by not bidding high enough or by overbidding. Nine in ten games in my group end by concession. The game is decided long before it's "over" and you know it, but we greatly enjoy the game anyway.

Catch-up mechanisms are fine. Snowball mechanisms are fine too. If you can't handle one or the other, that's on you, not the game.

Pete (often finds himself "leaderbashed" from turn 1 in his game group)
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Pete
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MasterCastle wrote:
WetRock wrote:
I'm starting to get the impression that people who complain about "leader bashing" and so-called "king making" actually are adverse to games with direct player interaction.

I think there is some preference out there for games where one can grab the lead and no one can directly do anything about it directly. It's a mastery of games vs mastery of game playing issue.

This or as others have said, people suffer from playing with people who are terrible.


Not really, the main problem with both Catan and Libertalia, they "pretend" that doing smart things helps you win. But the winner is not decided by smart actions but who the kingmakers like the most/dislike less. Then, all the actions I do in these two games feels meaningless = bad game.

However, as an intro game to board games I can understand that Catan have a "mission".

Take games like Stone Age or Roborally (the old one), your smart actions are rewarded. And this feels good.

If I play a heavy conflict game like Diplomacy or Risk, I know what can happen, and that alliances and similar can spoil my game. And this is no problem for me.
I don't see how Catan is any more prone to leaderbashing and blocking than Stone Age. I have never played a game of Stone Age without adjusting my play somewhat to block the leader (or if in the lead, the best competitor). A suboptimal play for me that screws you (taking a 2nd wheelbarrow, for example) is totally worth it.

Roborally? You've never played a high-initiative Move3 just to knock some chump into a hole? Especially if he's winning?

And how much more "kingmaking" can you get that Diplomacy or Risk? That's encouraged mode of play in those games.

Pete (isn't seeing your point)
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Cris Whetstone
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I don't think Libertalia is a good example here. It's fairly difficult to effect players directly in this game due to how the cards roll out. You can but most of the game feels pretty random.

Stone Age is a worker placement game where your interaction with other players is indirect. I cannot really effect your position but I can stop you from getting stuff you want. This game would be one I would point to as preferential for players who do not like direct player interaction.

Catan has direct and indirect ways of effecting other players. Any "king making" that arises from that is due to players and not the game. "Leader bashing" shouldn't really be an issue unless you feel the need to have unassailable position. It's perfectly natural to go after the leader if you are not that person. After all, it is a competition.
 
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Imants Cielens
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Ok thanks for the feedback Pete, all in all you are right it needs more in the ways of introduction and explanation but so far what i have done here has probably taken i don't know how many hours of work so i just wanted to get it out there. Basically everything i modded uses the base game, cities and knights and pirates and explorers expansions. You will need at least cities and knights to play most of the rules, i recommend having both anyway as they really go well together in my opinion. I'm going to give the rules some more work and also maybe if I'm lucky i can playlets them this weekend!I'll see what i can do to create a map diagram and list of pieces needed.
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Pete
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imacie wrote:
Ok thanks for the feedback Pete, all in all you are right it needs more in the ways of introduction and explanation but so far what i have done here has probably taken i don't know how many hours of work so i just wanted to get it out there. Basically everything i modded uses the base game, cities and knights and pirates and explorers expansions. You will need at least cities and knights to play most of the rules, i recommend having both anyway as they really go well together in my opinion. I'm going to give the rules some more work and also maybe if I'm lucky i can playlets them this weekend!I'll see what i can do to create a map diagram and list of pieces needed.
No trouble. I'm still going to work through it.

Pete (will probably not play this week as the Gloomhaven group is up to bat)
 
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Imants Cielens
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Hi everyone, I’ve been working away at the concepts. Here are some photos of a board layout to pique your interest, more can be found in the embedded link in my first post. I’ve also updated the rules for this PDF https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mIANPSnYPiFyTp_i77OSYL_jWd... and tried to add some introduction but if anyone can help with that by giving more feedback and direction that would help. This stuff has been so much in my head I can’t relate to how another person would see it and hence the introduction side of things is hard for me to do.
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Tamara H
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plezercruz wrote:
I took a look at the rules last night and felt like I was missing the first two pages. You need to add on page one a list of all the components I'm going to have to gather up from Catan and its expansions, and what I'll have to add. It's a bit irritating to get to another rule, only to have to go get the pieces to execute it.

The second page needs to be a setup page. Simply telling me I get one city and one harbor (what's a harbor and how do I place it so that it's mine) is not enough. Spell out what the map needs to look like, how many of each tile I use, where the robber goes, where the various special characters go all in one place.

Pete (feeds back before playing)


I would love to try out your new rules, but I just took a quick look at them and also feel immediately lost. I am sure I could figure it out, but a couple of intro pages with the components required and more detailed set up would be helpful.


Ooops! I posted too quickly I posted after reviewing the rules in the first post, not the updated ones in the new link above.
 
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john walter
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looking at the pictures is there a place where i can learn to build the lego card holders?
 
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Imants Cielens
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all you need is the lego, any will do, I've found lego fits precisely to the dimensions of the card. The one I've made so far are just basic shapes. The Development card one is cool and works well. the resources ones are an improvement from having them in piles but i might add a side to keep them from slipping around too much. its just a basic zig zag pattern i copied from this design : https://kalpentry.ca/storage-unit-board
 
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Imants Cielens
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Yeah, i know they are going to be a bit confusing to everyone to start with. I am trying to work out how to introduce them and make it easier to guid people through them. I think its mostly just reading the ideas and seeing what you think sounds good then implementing it in a game. Its how i started making them, i implemented the Desert Raiders idea and it worked well which led to some other ideas and so forth and all of a sudden i end up with a dragon and Zombies!

Still trying to find people to play with is the hardest part.


 
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Pete
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The new first page is a tremendous improvement.

Pete (had missed a few components reading through the rules)
 
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Imants Cielens
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ok thanks. And I've still got room on the first page for any other clarifications. I'll work on it a bit more to outline the different aspects of the new rules and how they can be intergrated

Im



 
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Jörg Baumgartner
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First off a complaint - I totally missed this thread because appeared in neither Catan, C&K or E&P forums. Even Das Buch zum Spielen would be a good fit, with many concepts from Desert Riders. Since C&K is inseparable, it should be announced in that game's forum.

The rules don't provided a very structured approach to the game, yet. They are full of brilliant ideas though - allowing the 3:1 trade only for resources adjacent to a harbor settlement is ingenious (and once you have seen it, sort of obvious, only you didn't see it before).

All the rules of C&K and E&P apply, unless altered, which is a fair bunch of implicated knowledge that the less fanatic Catan player would benefit from seeing spelled out. Luckily I write down my own notes on my crazy projects in similar shorthand.

Horse hexes: from the pictures, there are three of these, one fields with D6 1, one mountains with D6 2 and 3, and one pasture with D6 4, 5 and 6. Is that it?

volcano and jungle hexes: how did you mix these into the discovery part? replace water discovery hexes with stiicker markers?


Great Works: Do I have to wait a turn between paying for these, or can I pay all the cost in a single turn?


So you have only eight soldiers worth military research. Being the ... nice person I am, whenever I get hold of one starred soldier, I am not going to discard it ever, unless really forced to do so.

One each of road building, year of plenty and monopoly remain in the development card deck? With monopoly the unfettered no upper limit version of the base game, but restricted to resources?


p.3, second photo: did you place a harbor settlement on an intersection with three land hexes for optimized trade opportunities, or am I imagining things?


Soldiers aren't units, and vice versa. Used up soldiers become available for purchase again, I suppose.

Research & Devlopment Cards: how many of those do I need? A list of the card deck would be helpful.

Merchant and Magician: if player A promotes the merchant to the magician, does this mean that player B (who hasn't achieved that yet) will receive the merchant playing one of the yellow progress cards, leaving the wizard with player A? Or will the merchant be out of the game for good, and players who aren't qualified get to play around with the wizard?


No idea when I will have the chance to playtest this, but I will definitely steal elements from it for my future scenario building. And I'll announce the thread on the German Catan community, which still has a few stalwart mega-scenario-builders.



 
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