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Subject: Alpha males at the beginning of the game rss

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Fenmar
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The rules say you can always recruit an alpha male, but that this is just like any other hunter if it does not have some elder ability.

Does this mean, however, that you might still gain the alpha male in the initial phases of the game to marry another player's daughter without rolling?

Which parts of the rules, if any, forbids this?
 
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Andrej Kojic
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No. Because the alpha is only consider an alpha if you have an Warrior, Knapper, or Trapper Elder. If these are not present, then the alpha is just considered a hunter. You just described the rule that forbids that type of action.
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1. Your alpha hunter does not obtain any abilities until you have at least one of each color of vocabulary disc installed in the brain, and the corresponding elder (big spear, little spear, or club) is promoted.

2. Your 'club icon' elder is what actually gives your alpha the ability to auto-roll a "1" on courtship rolls.

The rules do not technically forbid you from eventually achieving what you suggested, it just won't be happening any time soon while you build up the ability to promote a 'club' elder that gives you a 'warrior' alpha.

---
This does bring up a question: If successful courtship roll ties are dictated by turn order (with the last successful roll being the one that wins the tie), does it so happen that a warrior-empowered Alpha contesting with other Hunters on a single daughter space, have potential to -lose- courtship (despite his auto-success roll) if he "rolls" before another hunter who rolls a successful courtship?
 
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Adam Gastonguay
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I believe the "You can recruit a (relatively useless) Alpha at any time" rule is there if you run out of hunters. Mainly you can grab the big cube and use it as a little cube if you need it.
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Fenmar
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Rontuaru wrote:
2. Your 'club icon' elder is what actually gives your alpha the ability to auto-roll a "1" on courtship rolls

Version 2 rules say: "Unless the daughter is a Lolita, a Warrior Alpha always succeeds ... without rolling". Thus, it seems that all alpha always succeed, not only the club icon elders.

There is some confusion in v. 2 rules about couring. It seems that the first successful courter send back home all the others --- as in hunting in more groups from the same animal. However, the example says something different. I guess there is some contradiction based on the remainance of some old piece of text in the new rules...
 
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Dr Pete
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I'm not sure if I see the spot you are thinking of. A warrior alpha means an alpha empowered by a warrior elder.

I do notice a problem in the description...

Under successful courtship, it says that a successful suitor removes the husband. Promiscuous courting leaves the husband box vacant.

Under promiscuous courting, it says that promiscuous courtship does not impact marital status.

I'm actually not sure what is supposed to happen. I had assumed the husband stayed if the promiscuous suitor was successful, but maybe not...?
 
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mfenici wrote:
Version 2 rules say: "Unless the daughter is a Lolita, a Warrior Alpha always succeeds ... without rolling". Thus, it seems that all alpha always succeed, not only the club icon elders.

Below is the passage that, I interpret, suggests you need a Warrior elder before you can gain auto-success courtship ability on your Alpha (section E5-The Alpha):
• Club. If you have a Warrior, during Phase 3 attack rolls, your Hunters colocated with your Alpha form War Parties (F2). Furthermore, your Alpha on a “club” biome (including daughters) may consider its hunt roll to be a “1” , without actually rolling for it. Note that for the Attack Roll (F2), the Alpha must roll like any other Hunter.




mfenici wrote:
There is some confusion in v. 2 rules about couring. It seems that the first successful courter send back home all the others --- as in hunting in more groups from the same animal. However, the example says something different. I guess there is some contradiction based on the remainance of some old piece of text in the new rules...

Yes, I am little confused by the phrasing in that section as well. Especially because it mentions something about the "daughter's father deciding ties", which is then immediately followed by saying that the first success is what breaks ties of multiple people rolling successfully. I am not quite sure, but haven't seen a single tie-breaker courtship roll in my plays to even bother with this ruling.
 
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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Rontuaru wrote:
mfenici wrote:
Version 2 rules say: "Unless the daughter is a Lolita, a Warrior Alpha always succeeds ... without rolling". Thus, it seems that all alpha always succeed, not only the club icon elders.

Below is the passage that, I interpret, suggests you need a Warrior elder before you can gain auto-success courtship ability on your Alpha (section E5-The Alpha):
• Club. If you have a Warrior, during Phase 3 attack rolls, your Hunters colocated with your Alpha form War Parties (F2). Furthermore, your Alpha on a “club” biome (including daughters) may consider its hunt roll to be a “1” , without actually rolling for it. Note that for the Attack Roll (F2), the Alpha must roll like any other Hunter.




mfenici wrote:
There is some confusion in v. 2 rules about couring. It seems that the first successful courter send back home all the others --- as in hunting in more groups from the same animal. However, the example says something different. I guess there is some contradiction based on the remainance of some old piece of text in the new rules...

Yes, I am little confused by the phrasing in that section as well. Especially because it mentions something about the "daughter's father deciding ties", which is then immediately followed by saying that the first success is what breaks ties of multiple people rolling successfully. I am not quite sure, but haven't seen a single tie-breaker courtship roll in my plays to even bother with this ruling.


I think your confusion is a result of mixing up Hunt and Courtship rolls, these are two separate and distinct rolls. The Alpha ability only applies to the hunt roll, not the courtship roll.

The Hunt roll is for the fight between existing husbands and/or potential suitors. The courtship roll occurs later and is totally separate from the hunt roll.
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
Rontuaru wrote:
mfenici wrote:
Version 2 rules say: "Unless the daughter is a Lolita, a Warrior Alpha always succeeds ... without rolling". Thus, it seems that all alpha always succeed, not only the club icon elders.

Below is the passage that, I interpret, suggests you need a Warrior elder before you can gain auto-success courtship ability on your Alpha (section E5-The Alpha):
• Club. If you have a Warrior, during Phase 3 attack rolls, your Hunters colocated with your Alpha form War Parties (F2). Furthermore, your Alpha on a “club” biome (including daughters) may consider its hunt roll to be a “1” , without actually rolling for it. Note that for the Attack Roll (F2), the Alpha must roll like any other Hunter.




mfenici wrote:
There is some confusion in v. 2 rules about couring. It seems that the first successful courter send back home all the others --- as in hunting in more groups from the same animal. However, the example says something different. I guess there is some contradiction based on the remainance of some old piece of text in the new rules...

Yes, I am little confused by the phrasing in that section as well. Especially because it mentions something about the "daughter's father deciding ties", which is then immediately followed by saying that the first success is what breaks ties of multiple people rolling successfully. I am not quite sure, but haven't seen a single tie-breaker courtship roll in my plays to even bother with this ruling.


I think your confusion is a result of mixing up Hunt and Courtship rolls, these are two separate and distinct rolls. The Alpha ability only applies to the hunt roll, not the courtship roll.

The Hunt roll is for the fight between existing husbands and/or potential suitors. The courtship roll occurs later and is totally separate from the hunt roll.


You are right. Thanks for correcting it.

Does it still stand that the alpha-piece cannot be technically called an "alpha" at all unless the three colors of vocabulary discs are placed in the brain?
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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Rontuaru wrote:


Does it still stand that the alpha-piece cannot be technically called an "alpha" at all unless the three colors of vocabulary discs are placed in the brain?


Absolutely!

And it isn't just the three color tiles you need, you also need to have a mature elder of the type associated with those three discs, that is currently alive, before you can be considered to have an Alpha.
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Marcel Stipetic
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I'd also like to get clarification on this issue, too.

It seems clear that during Phase 3 the Warrior alpha gets no special treatment/ability.

Quote:
Club. If you have a Warrior, during Phase 3 attack rolls, your Hunters co-located with your Alpha form War Parties (F2). Furthermore, your Alpha on a “club” biome (including daughters) may consider its hunt roll to be a “1” , without actually rolling for it. Note that for the Attack Roll (F2), the Alpha must roll like any other Hunter.


So, during Phase 3, for contested daughters, all suitors roll a dice (most black disks goes first); those that roll a 1 or 2 get to choose which other suitor gets killed. Warrior status affords no benefits here. That's it.

Whoever survives moves to Phase 4. The suitor with the highest number of disks matching the bid color(s) on the daughter card goes first (the father decides who goes first if there is a tie). Then the suitors roll.

Quote:
The first successful courtship roll must install a Husband if it is possible to do so (next bullet), and sends all other Suitors home unrequited.


This seems to imply that if a suitor rolls before the Warrior, and rolls a 1 or a 2, the Warrior, and the other suitor, if any, goes back home head hanging low. Let's not forget that any suitor that rolls a six is killed.

So, unless the Warrior rolls first, it is possible that his courtship will not be auto-matic (to distinguish from auto-success; which just means that when it would be his turn to roll, his roll would be a success).

Is this correct (according to the rules from the current Kickstarter)?
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RJ
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Marcel, your interpretation of the Warrior losing out on its instant-success courtship roll seems be correct. The person who rolls a successful courtship roll first, wins.

Though, I think it quite an investment to use your empowered Alpha on a daughter. Unless there is an option that I am not aware of which allows you to switch it out with another hunter later, this means you lose access your Alpha for the remainder of the game.
 
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Fenmar
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You may switch it to a humter at any phase! But you lose its power for hunting for a turn!
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Dr Pete
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B4: During any phase, you may swap your Alpha with an unassigned tribesman, if your Alpha is in the dead pile or permanently assigned as an elder or husband.
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Andrej Kojic
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...This is why this game needs a new rule book.
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Marcel Stipetic
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Quote:
Though, I think it quite an investment to use your empowered Alpha on a daughter.


I see your point. But as others have mentioned, as soon as you move out of phase 4,or as soon as you have an unassigned tribesman available, you can switch your Alpha out for an unassigned tribesman.

But you are correct; it's a risk to use the Alpha for a courtship (he may get killed in Phase 3 or lose out in the courtship of Phase 4). But you can switch him out of the common pile as soon as you have an unassigned tribesman available if he gets killed. Basically, it's as if you lost one tribesman this turn. Or it can affect your hunting rolls.

Your best odds are if you know your Alpha will be first player in the courtship (based on the bid color of the disks of the daughter). Then you auto-matically win because you have an auto-success. So, there is a way to plan this out ahead of time.

I find the whole courtship section to most difficult to understand, but discussing it here helps me understand it better. Someone on the Kickstarter thread picked up on a significant mistake in the courtship rule that made things more difficult to understand.

This bit on page 24: An Archaic daughter married to a Neanderthal is being courted by Archaic and Cro-Magnon. All three players unsuccessfully roll for combat in Phase 3. Then, in player order they each make a courtship roll in Phase 4. Archaic goes first, and rolls a “2” which knocks the yellow Husband into green’s unassigned tribesmen (as a Wanderluster). But Cro-Magnon also rolls successfully, becoming the new Husband which sends the frustrated Archaic newlywed into green’s bachelor pool of unassigned tribesmen as well.

Has officially been changed to:
An Archaic daughter married to a Neanderthal is being courted by Archaic and Cro-Magnon. All three players unsuccessfully roll for combat in Phase 3. Then, in vocabulary order they each make a courtship roll in Phase 4. Archaic goes first, and rolls a “2” which defeats the other suitors. The yellow Husband into green’s unassigned tribesmen (as a Wanderluster), and the Cro-Magnon is returned to the red unassigned tribesmen.

This new example makes more sense given the discussion we've had above.
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