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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Elementist Class

Vengeance (Lvl 7)

Attack 2, Range 3 (3 cluster hex AoE)
at an addtional cost of a dark and any other element: Kill all normal targets instead, plus 1 experience.

I am wondering if what the "instead" is implying here. Do Elite monsters still get hit for 2 attack each? or do they get no attack?
 
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Jussi-Pekka Jokinen
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Re: *** SPOILER *** Ability name (Locked class) against Elite
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I would say that the "instead" replaces the attack, so elites are unaffected.


You shouldn't really mention the class/ability names in a title, by the way. Kind of spoilery.
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Scot Rose
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Re: *** SPOILER *** Vengeance (Elementist) against Elite
WTF. One of the few I haven't opened yet. Use the symbol not the name like every other post.
 
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michael ray
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Re: *** SPOILER *** Vengeance (Elementist) against Elite
Your subject is still a spoiler. You need to update it to a description of the box picture, like 3 spears, or cuthulu, or angry head guy, and then 'card question'.

Something like:

'3 spears card(or whatever the picture is) question against elite'
 
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M.C.Crispy
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UndyingRedComet wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Elementist Class

Vengeance (Lvl 7)

Attack 2, Range 3 (3 cluster hex AoE)
at an addtional cost of a dark and any other element: Kill all normal targets instead, plus 1 experience.

I am wondering if what the "instead" is implying here. Do Elite monsters still get hit for 2 attack each? or do they get no attack?
Interesting, it isn't in the FAQ... My guess is that it is
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Attack 2, Range 3, AoE, but if you spend the extra cost then any Normal targets are Killed instead of taking the damage. Elite Monsters would be Attacked normally
 
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thespaceinvader -
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I had this question as well. That's how I'd read it - 2 damage, or if normal, execute, per target.
 
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Des T.
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It's a replacement effect. If it wasn't, it wouldn't need to use the word instead.

Legitimate alternate card texts for the non-replacement case:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

Attack 2
Range 3
Dark, Wild: Kill all normal targets, 1XP

or

Attack 2
Range 3
Dark, Wild: Additionally, kill all normal targets, 1XP


We could look up other cards to see how replacement effects are formulated there, to be sure, but I'm pretty confident I'm right.

This is, hands down, one of the most powerful cards I have seen. If you don't want to use the execute, just don't consume the elements.
The rare situation where you'll have to choose between execute or damage feels very consistent with the design of Gloomhaven.
 
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Casey Harris
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I believe the answer is in the FAQ:

What if I consume an element to turn an attack action into a kill action?
So long as you consume the element and trigger only the kill effect, the word "instead" negates the attack, and it is no longer an attack.


Also, when looking up other cards that use an "instead" replacement effect, they would be super-powered if you kept the original effect AND the replacement effect.
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Des T.
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caseyharris wrote:

I believe the answer is in the FAQ:


Daaayum. Nice find. I didn't even think of checking that section.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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DeS_Tructive wrote:

Legitimate alternate card texts for the non-replacement case:

Quote:

Attack 2
Range 3
Dark, Wild: Kill all normal targets, 1XP

or

Attack 2
Range 3
Dark, Wild: Additionally, kill all normal targets, 1XP


Disagree, these are not the same. In this case you would do the attack and therefore draw an attack modifier (maybe it generates an element or adds a curse or pushes them or adds a target or lets you use an item...) and only kill them afterwards.

Quote:
What if I consume an element to turn an attack action into a kill action?
So long as you consume the element and trigger only the kill effect, the word "instead" negates the attack, and it is no longer an attack.


This answer actually implies that the attacks against the elites still happen. It says "So long as you consume the element and trigger only the kill effect"... well, in this case, you consume the element but don't trigger only the kill effect. You trigger the kill effect on some targets and the attack on others. Therefore per the FAQ entry the entire action is still an attack action because it has at least one attack in it.

If this case of replacing some attacks of a multi-target attack with kills were not possible, the FAQ entry would not be worded in this complicated conditional way.

(In case it's not clear, this FAQ entry is answering an entirely different question. It's about whether an attack action that's replaced the attack with a kill still counts as an "attack action" for other purposes. The fact that it says it's no longer an attack action in the case where all the attacks are replaced with kills implies that it's possible for only some of the attacks to be replaced with kills.)
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Here's how you could word the card if it replaced the entire attack with normal kills:

Attack 2 [hex pattern]
Range 3
Dark, Wild: Instead, kill all normal enemies in the targeted area, 1XP
 
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Des T.
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That interpretation is definitely also valid. I think it's time to call the officials. XD
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j ribs
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Hm, yeah I might be with sean on this one.

You target 1 elite and 2 normals with the attack. So you are performing an attack on all 3. You decide to consume the elements to kill all targeted normals.

So the 2 normals you were targeting get dead. You are still targeting the elite who gets attacked like normal.
 
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Isaac Childres
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If you consume the elements, the entire attack turns into a kill effect. Elites wouldn't be attacked.
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M.C.Crispy
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Something to look forward to when I level up my Elementalist at our next session then!
 
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