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The Russian Campaign» Forums » General

Subject: Mech Corps in Soviet OOB rss

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Pete Jones
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The Soviet OOB is wrong in quite a few places for the Barbarossa campaign. Just looking at the Mech Corps:

1 Mech in Baltic, but should be in Leningrad (Reserve)
2 Mech in Moscow, but should be in Odessa
3 Mech in Kiev, but should be in Baltic
5 Mech in Western, but should be in STAVKA Reserve
7 Mech in Baltic, but should be in STAVKA Reserve
8 Mech in Western, but should be in Kiev
9 Mech in Leningrad, but should be in Kiev (Reserve)
10 Mech in Riga, but should be in Leningrad
11 Mech in Kiev, but should be in Western
12 Mech in Odessa, but should be in Baltic

4, 6 Mech are OK. Missing 15 more Mech Corps, but I understand there are limits!

My source is http://niehorster.org/

Cheers
Pete



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Bryan Felsher
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Interesting. There’s a historical setup in one of the General magazines that I’m solitairing against at the moment, and there was only one major unit change from the Avalon Hill OOB. I’m curious as to where they got their information and who is correct.
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Roberto Volpi
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Denominations of Soviet mech corps are fictional, but generally speaking Soviet OBB can be considered correct enough.

In the '70s a lot of historical information referred to Soviets was not available, so Mr Edwards had to literally invent part of Soviet OOB.



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Pete Jones
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I'll check some of the Glantz books when I get them (lots of stuff still in storage after a house move recently). "The Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front" is a good source with all the positions of the mech corps and how they met their destruction.
 
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Paul Brown
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Yes, interesting. I tried to puzzle out historical start positions for GDWs Great Patriotic War using Glantz's Barbarossa book. Came to conclusion the missing mech corps were abstracted into some of the infantry armies.
 
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Roberto Volpi
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Well Paul, the way Mr. Edwards abstracted those mech corps is more refined:

- the famous (or infamous) 3 mountain hexes next Lwow does not represent an actual terrain feature, but a way to abstract 2 or 3 Soviet mech corps. In the '70s historians reported a stronger Soviet resistance in that zone in June 41, and the real OOB was not known.

- every turn the Soviet player can replace a mech corps, so another bunch of those units come into play. We know now that until beginning 1942 no mech corps were actually replaced;

- some mech corps never took part in the military campaign, because it was disbanded at the very beginning of the war (ex. the mech corps in Moscow) or remained in the far east;

- finally, many Soviet corps were actually not serviceable, and opposed negligible resistance to German invader.

Taking all that into account, I consider that the importance of those units in that conflict is correctly represented, at least for that scale. Of course TRC is not a scientific study of Operation Barbarossa (no wargame can ever be like that) but gives a correct idea of strengths and weaknesses of Germans and Soviets during that conflict.
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Paul Brown
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Hah! An excellent point & even more interesting. This is surely 'design for effect' in action and in way that works at least for this game

I always find these design choices (whether they are stated or not) endlessly fascinating. For instance Steve Newberg decided to model leadership in Lebensraum, his Army level treatment of the conflict. So there is a rule for poorly performing Leaders being 'replaced' which for the Soviets, as he says in the rules, means trundling back to Moscow to be shot surprise

I love the idea of using extra mountains to model the capabilities of mech corps. Although if that is the case, shouldn't there be a rule that removes one of the mountain hexes at the point in the game where Guard Tank corps start to appear devil
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