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Subject: Smoke in Internal Building Hex rss

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Pengyu ZHAO
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If a MMC throw a smoke grenade in an Internal Building Hex of a multi-level building and there is no stairs in the Internal Building Hex.
Will Smoke spread to the higher-level Internal Building Hex?
 
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Stephen Rynerson
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Based on my review of the smoke rules plus the discussion here: http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/smoke-gren... , I think it would rise to a higher level of an internal building hex even in the absence of a stairwell.
 
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Hong Kong Wargamer
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Heya Stephen .. long time no speak buddy

Perry only spoke in regards to the cellar HAVING a staircase .. do you have references that extend this to cellars with NO staircase?

Rgds
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Stephen Rynerson
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jacksonk wrote:
Heya Stephen .. long time no speak buddy

Perry only spoke in regards to the cellar HAVING a staircase .. do you have references that extend this to cellars with NO staircase?

Rgds


Jackson, hey, first, sorry for not having replied to your e-mail! I'll do that separately. As to the question, I agree that the "Perry sez" only addressed a situation with a stairwell, but the rest of the flow of the discussion in the GS thread seemed to be that no one could identify a rule that actually prohibits smoke from rising to a higher-level internal building hex in the absence of a stairwell, so from a "COWTRA" standpoint it would mean that the absence a stairwell is irrelevant. (Klas implicitly acknowledges the COWTRA issue here -- http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/smoke-gren... )

That said, I'm entirely willing to be proved wrong on this! laugh
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Bruce Probst
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zhaopengyu1985 wrote:
If a MMC throw a smoke grenade in an Internal Building Hex of a multi-level building and there is no stairs in the Internal Building Hex. Will Smoke spread to the higher-level Internal Building Hex?


Yes.

Why? Because no EXC is provided in A24.4 for Interior Building hexes. The presence of absence of a Stairwell is irrelevant. (SMOKE does not use the stairs.)

[Aside from Sniper attacks (A14.22) and Indirect Fire attacks (B23.32), "interior building hexes" -- as defined in the Index -- are not treated differently to other building hexes.]

Regarding cellars, you should be specific about what sort of cellars you're talking about. Cellar rules are only found in certain HASL modules, and the cellar rules for one HASL are not necessarily identical to the cellar rules of a different HASL. In any case, you don't need a Stairwell (printed or inherent) to "permit" Smoke (or flames) to rise to a higher elevation in any building hex, cellar or otherwise.

All of that may offend your personal sense of "realism". On behalf of the rules, I apologise for that. The rules don't apologise, because they don't care. They just are.
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Klas Malmstrom
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BruceP wrote:
[Aside from Sniper attacks (A14.22) and Indirect Fire attacks (B23.32), "interior building hexes" -- as defined in the Index -- are not treated differently to other building hexes.]


IIRC, there are a couple of more rules/situations (which are not listed in the Index for some reason) that differ between interior building hexes and non-interior building hexes - though not really related to this thread, and they probably don't come up that often.

The one that comes to mind at the moment is that it is always "No Wind" in an interior building hex.
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Nadir Elfarra
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BruceP wrote:
...The rules don't apologise, because they don't care. They just are.


That needs to be a t-shirt!
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Russ Williams
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Leopold in A Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy wrote:
I'm sorry. I did not create the cosmos. I merely explain it.
 
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Stephen Rynerson
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klasmalmstrom wrote:
The one that comes to mind at the moment is that it is always "No Wind" in an interior building hex.


A.K.A. the negative air pressure gradient rule. ninja
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Gary Logs
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Tcaalaw wrote:
klasmalmstrom wrote:
The one that comes to mind at the moment is that it is always "No Wind" in an interior building hex.


A.K.A. the negative air pressure gradient rule. ninja


And elevator etiquette!
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Mike Jackson
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BruceP wrote:
zhaopengyu1985 wrote:
If a MMC throw a smoke grenade in an Internal Building Hex of a multi-level building and there is no stairs in the Internal Building Hex. Will Smoke spread to the higher-level Internal Building Hex?


Yes.

Why? Because no EXC is provided in A24.4 for Interior Building hexes. The presence of absence of a Stairwell is irrelevant. (SMOKE does not use the stairs.)


Well, there's no EXC until Perry makes one. So do we just accept that all ASL floors are deemed to have big holes in them, but you're not allowed to shoot or drop grenades through those holes? Doesn't really work for me sorry ... I think this is just a case of a question that's never been properly asked or answered. I could be wrong, but I think if Perry was asked the question "Can smoke rise through the floor of an internal building hex without a stairwell?" the answer would be a common sense "No".
 
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Klas Malmstrom
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RoadJT3 wrote:
BruceP wrote:
zhaopengyu1985 wrote:
If a MMC throw a smoke grenade in an Internal Building Hex of a multi-level building and there is no stairs in the Internal Building Hex. Will Smoke spread to the higher-level Internal Building Hex?


Yes.

Why? Because no EXC is provided in A24.4 for Interior Building hexes. The presence of absence of a Stairwell is irrelevant. (SMOKE does not use the stairs.)


Well, there's no EXC until Perry makes one. So do we just accept that all ASL floors are deemed to have big holes in them, but you're not allowed to shoot or drop grenades through those holes? Doesn't really work for me sorry ... I think this is just a case of a question that's never been properly asked or answered. I could be wrong, but I think if Perry was asked the question "Can smoke rise through the floor of an internal building hex without a stairwell?" the answer would be a common sense "No".

Drop MMP a Q&A.
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Marc Hanna
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And Mike, good luck with that QA, because even though what you say totally makes that smoke should not infiltrate through cracks without a stairwell (as if smoke would not rise through stairwells -- give me a break ), MMP does not have a history of making sensible changes to rules if they have been around since the times of the mummies (or since the inception of the game in 1985).
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Mike Jackson
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klasmalmstrom wrote:

Drop MMP a Q&A.


Ok, will do. I'll ask the question for external building hexes without a stairwell also.
 
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Mike Jackson
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Honosbinda wrote:
And Mike, good luck with that QA, because even though what you say totally makes that smoke should not infiltrate through cracks without a stairwell (as if smoke would not rise through stairwells -- give me a break ), MMP does not have a history of making sensible changes to rules if they have been around since the times of the mummies (or since the inception of the game in 1985).


Thanks for your well wishes Marc. You might be shown to be right in this case, but ASL rules subtleties do actually have a very long and distinguished history of changes, including many clarifications, and even exceptions, introduced via Q&A's which totally overrule COWTRA. If COWTRA was all that mattered in the big picture, Q&A's would not exist.
 
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Marc Hanna
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RoadJT3 wrote:
Honosbinda wrote:
And Mike, good luck with that QA, because even though what you say totally makes that smoke should not infiltrate through cracks without a stairwell (as if smoke would not rise through stairwells -- give me a break ), MMP does not have a history of making sensible changes to rules if they have been around since the times of the mummies (or since the inception of the game in 1985).


Thanks for your well wishes Marc. You might be shown to be right in this case, but ASL rules subtleties do actually have a very long and distinguished history of changes, including many clarifications, and even exceptions, introduced via Q&A's which totally overrule COWTRA. If COWTRA was all that mattered in the big picture, Q&A's would not exist.


I don't disagree about the long (not always distinguished) history of clarifications but they don't generally like messing with something fundamental that will change the play of the game significantly, if that has been around since the very beginning, like this has
 
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Mike Jackson
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Q&A sent:

A24.4
a) Does SMOKE in a Ground Level Location rise to Level 1 through the floor of an Interior Multi-Story building hex without a stairwell to create a Level 1 Hindrance?
b) Does SMOKE in a Ground Level Location which rises to Level 1 in an exterior Multi-Story building hex without a stairwell create a Level 1 Hindrance to fire traced solely within the building depiction?

I'll let you guys know how it goes.
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Klas Malmstrom
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RoadJT3 wrote:

Q&A sent:

A24.4
a) Does SMOKE in a Ground Level Location rise to Level 1 through the floor of an Interior Multi-Story building hex without a stairwell to create a Level 1 Hindrance?
b) Does SMOKE in a Ground Level Location which rises to Level 1 in an exterior Multi-Story building hex without a stairwell create a Level 1 Hindrance to fire traced solely within the building depiction?

I'll let you guys know how it goes.

For the record SMOKE is usually a Level 2/4 Hindrance - note Level 1.
 
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Mike Jackson
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I said a Level 1 Hindrance, not a one level Hindrance. Conventional (non-WP) smoke at ground level doesn't create a Hindrance at Level 2. It is a two level Hindrance present through Ground Level and Level 1 (up to the floor of Level 2, but not a Level 2 Hindrance).
 
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Mike Jackson
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Ok, I see what you're saying. The ASLRB sometimes uses the terminology of Level 1 Hindrance and one level Hindrance as the same thing. So the wording of my question could be confusing. I do of course refer to a Hindrance in the Level 1 Location. I'll send another email to clarify.
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Mike Jackson
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Here's the new Q&A sent:

A24.4
a) Does SMOKE in a Ground Level Location rise to the Level 1 Location through the floor of an Interior Multi-Story building hex without a stairwell to create a Hindrance in the Level 1 Location?
b) Does SMOKE in a Ground Level Location which rises to the Level 1 Location in an exterior Multi-Story building hex without a stairwell create a Hindrance in that Level 1 Location to fire/LOS traced solely within the building depiction?
 
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Bruce Probst
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There's realism and then there's realism. It means different things to different people. For example, I've heard the argument that the +1 LV "Mist" Hindrance for Heavy Falling Rain (applies at ranges of 6 or less) should not apply for attacks within a building, on the seemingly-reasonable assumption that inside the building, it isn't raining. I would counter those arguments as follows:

1) How do you know what the condition of that building's roof is like? It could be leaking like a sieve.

2) I can't speak for anywhere else, but in this part of the world, when it's raining heavily, it gets dark. I don't think it's a common practice to turn on all the house lights in the middle of a battle, even assuming that the building is fitted with electricity in the first place (and that the power is working in this part of the battlefield, and that all of the light fittings are intact). I have no problem with heavy rain making it harder to see things even when you're not actually getting wet.

You can run up similar arguments for SMOKE. We see a little drawing of a house on a game board and immediately ccmplete the mental image with our own particular prejudices and ideas ... which sometimes is fine and sometimes is not. Your two-hex building on board 4 can represent something "typical" in 1940 France and something completely different, yet equally "typical", in 1941 Soviet Union. In game terms it's all the same, in reality ... well, who knows. So arguing what "reality" the game should depict 100% of the time is, IMO, pretty silly.

Regardless ... it doesn't hurt to ask the question. If it moves Perry to issue errata, fine. I can deal with errata. The original question, though, is what are the rules on this situation right now.
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Mike Jackson
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RoadJT3 wrote:

Here's the new Q&A sent:

A24.4
a) Does SMOKE in a Ground Level Location rise to the Level 1 Location through the floor of an Interior Multi-Story building hex without a stairwell to create a Hindrance in the Level 1 Location?
b) Does SMOKE in a Ground Level Location which rises to the Level 1 Location in an exterior Multi-Story building hex without a stairwell create a Hindrance in that Level 1 Location to fire/LOS traced solely within the building depiction?


The verdict is in thanks to a quick reply from Perry!

Yes to both.

....Perry
MMP


So it's official ... smoke actually does rise through the floor in ASL!
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Klas Malmstrom
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BruceP wrote:
...For example, I've heard the argument that the +1 LV "Mist" Hindrance for Heavy Falling Rain (applies at ranges of 6 or less) should not apply for attacks within a building, on the seemingly-reasonable assumption that inside the building, it isn't raining....

Hm....I would have thought that E3.8 made the Mist LV Hindrance NA within a building. Perhaps that is not the case.

3.8 BUILDINGS: Weather is always “Clear” for units in a building viewing/firing to/entering another Location of that same building through a building hexside and for units in the same hex [EXC: Bypass/Rooftop].
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Dan Huffman
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klasmalmstrom wrote:
BruceP wrote:
...For example, I've heard the argument that the +1 LV "Mist" Hindrance for Heavy Falling Rain (applies at ranges of 6 or less) should not apply for attacks within a building, on the seemingly-reasonable assumption that inside the building, it isn't raining....

Hm....I would have thought that E3.8 made the Mist LV Hindrance NA within a building. Perhaps that is not the case.

3.8 BUILDINGS: Weather is always “Clear” for units in a building viewing/firing to/entering another Location of that same building through a building hexside and for units in the same hex [EXC: Bypass/Rooftop].


Someone needs to copy this whole discussion into the "Why we learn ASL" thread!!! LOL

Awesome! I have always viewed ASL as: It is my job to play by the rules to the best of my ability. It is my opponent's job to ensure that I do.
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