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Twilight Imperium (Fourth Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: A few little things I like (or don't) vs. TI3 rss

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Jeff S
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Like:
Plastic components - way better
Larger tiles to fit the larger pieces
More dynamic trading
Two votes once the Agenda phase comes in
Everything with Secret Objectives - more choices, can complete more, can get a new one and discard
Racial Techs count as specific colors now
Can park on Asteroids now
No Action cards to search through the deck or discard pile
The planet portion of the insert


Dislike:
Everything else about the insert
Thinner tiles - mine are already cupped a little
No gold border on home systems - much harder to see quickly mid-game
No Action cards that grant Trade Goods
Ship upgrade Techs don't count as specific colors now
Not votes until Mecatol is taken
Everyone has all their votes when the Agenda phase hits - understandable to not make you save planets for this phase, but led to very predictable votes against the leader. Might be more even in a 6-player game (we had 4)
I preferred the old extra fighter and GF tokens
I miss Leaders
Larger tiles means I need to rebuild our frame!
 
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Avery Bailey
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sirjonsnow wrote:

No Action cards that grant Trade Goods


There's at least one. I played it on Thursday. Gave trade goods in the number of resources of a planet I own.
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Geordie Kermit
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One of the things that really stands out for me are the flagships. I really did prefer the unusual TI3 ones. For me the TI4 flag is too similar in shape to the Dreadnought
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Becky Rose
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sirjonsnow wrote:
Everyone has all their votes when the Agenda phase hits - understandable to not make you save planets for this phase, but led to very predictable votes against the leader. Might be more even in a 6-player game (we had 4)

I am extremely new to the game, but this struck me as odd too. Would you say it is worth a house rule or would that cause balance issues?
 
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Geordie Kermit
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I'm embarrassed to say that we played this rule wrong in our first game. I knew that Mecatol unlocked the Agenda phase - but we put it before the Status phase, not after. I think I just assumed all the clean-up happened after. So we were keeping a handful of votes back for then. I guess it will play very different when all influence is available. I think I prefer that
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Jesper Frödin
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there are even more cards granting trade goods, you probably just missed them. Tehy just donate grant you trade goods however, they play off something else like your own planets or an opponents planet, maybe traits on planets etc.

I think the ship upgrades are really good and important as they are, that they would be too important if they granted a pre-req as well. Destroyer is the only one I've never considered, yet..

The gold border makes it easier to see yes, but the TI4 ones just looks so much better

In my 5 games so far I have not yet seen mecatol uncontrolled after round 2, so only one round without voting for us. I can imagine it lasting until round 3 but no longer than that for most games, at least not with the people I've played with so far. It could be pretty important to get that extra point!

I am also a bit torn on the agenda phase, I'm thinking of trying to make everyone vote at the same time (game of thrones style) and speaker still able to call for vote/break ties. Sure the speaker will lose some power but I have not yet seen the speaker having a huge benefit from being last to vote.
 
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Klaus T.
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sirjonsnow wrote:

Dislike:
Not votes until Mecatol is taken


This is actually a LIKE for me
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Esben Heick
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BeckyRose wrote:
sirjonsnow wrote:
Everyone has all their votes when the Agenda phase hits - understandable to not make you save planets for this phase, but led to very predictable votes against the leader. Might be more even in a 6-player game (we had 4)

I am extremely new to the game, but this struck me as odd too. Would you say it is worth a house rule or would that cause balance issues?


No, I think its a small stroke of genius. If fun aligns with strategy, the game is improved. You need to decide for yourself how much of your production capacity for the next turn you want to waste by spending the cards on influence, getting what you want. For this reason the 0/2 and 0/3 planets are great, as they are useful for votes without compromising construction.

If you had to keep your planets untapped to vote before refreshing, (TI3) you'd have no influence in production heavy phases, because you didn't resist buying that tempting batch of dreadnoughts. The opposite situation, where you can't build that dreadnought because you couldn't resist voting is (imho) more fun
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Federico C.
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esque wrote:
BeckyRose wrote:
sirjonsnow wrote:
Everyone has all their votes when the Agenda phase hits - understandable to not make you save planets for this phase, but led to very predictable votes against the leader. Might be more even in a 6-player game (we had 4)

I am extremely new to the game, but this struck me as odd too. Would you say it is worth a house rule or would that cause balance issues?


No, I think its a small stroke of genius. If fun aligns with strategy, the game is improved. You need to decide for yourself how much of your production capacity for the next turn you want to waste by spending the cards on influence, getting what you want. For this reason the 0/2 and 0/3 planets are great, as they are useful for votes without compromising construction.

If you had to keep your planets untapped to vote before refreshing, (TI3) you'd have no influence in production heavy phases, because you didn't resist buying that tempting batch of dreadnoughts. The opposite situation, where you can't build that dreadnought because you couldn't resist voting is (imho) more fun


Uuuuuh, you refresh your planets again at he end of the agenda phase.
 
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Becky Rose
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Ediwir wrote:
Uuuuuh, you refresh your planets again at he end of the agenda phase.

The discussion was regards to house ruling not doing that.

Federico C. wrote:
If fun aligns with strategy, the game is improved.

I pefer the "idea" of it, but I'm far too new to TI4 to be suggesting rule improvements.

There is a huge part of me that wants to mod the hell out of the game, but understanding it first is quite an important pre-requisite
 
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Maltuvion Irewood
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I can empathize with the lack of agendas until Mecatol is taken. It hamstrings Xxcha, already not a particularly strong race, unevenly, and it delays an important aspect of the game for a long time.

That and certain races coming across as too binary and/or imbalanced. As an example, Winnu with MR is decent, without MR they are atrocious with an incredibly weak start to boot.

 
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J Kaemmer
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sirjonsnow wrote:

I preferred the old extra fighter and GF tokens


This may sound like a quibble but I'm actually with you on this one. the GF are fine, I guess, but the new Fighter tokens are basically the same hues as the damn system tiles. I can't see a token under a carrier or fighter from across the board without straining my eyes or leaning over the table.
 
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Jeff S
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I did forget about a card that was played that gave the Trade Goods equal to one planet's resources, but I think there's still only like what, four TG cards in the deck?

It's okay, but I wouldn't have minded a few more - use for X or spend as a TG, like the expansion cards if you weren't using certain rules.

We almost played the Agenda phase refresh wrong, but luckily I reread that section early enough in our game that we played it correctly. Like I said, I understand why you refresh, but I liked the mid-round voting in TI3 where vote counts may vary. I like the idea of simultaneous voting (write down and reveal?) but we'll need a few more TI4 games before we move to that.

I agree that the Flagship is a little too close to the Dreads now, but the material is so much better than the rubbery one was. I do kind of miss the old Cruiser shape. The new one is fine, but doesn't feel like a Cruiser to me yet.


OH, I also need to do a full inventory of my plastic - blue was short an infantry. Is there a breakdown of each unit count? I can figure it out, but that seemed like another shortcoming, just listing a total of 59.
 
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Jeff S
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Here's the frame my father made a few years ago. We're going to have to cut it apart (there's plywood under the tiles, making the tiles slightly inset) and rebuild it. We may just make it into a frame using the outer pieces, instead of a full board.

 
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Jeff S
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We only had 4-players, and I haven't had time to dig into all the races yet, but what we did play (I didn't get to dig into our 4 enough, even):

Sol - I thought they were good before, now their Carriers start buffed and their Flagship is improved.

Yssaril - their "skip" ability is weakened. I actually never even used it this game. Starting techs weakened too, they're probably middle of the pack now.

Mentak - big buff to their stealing ability, we almost never saw it actually get to be used before. Slight weakening of Salvage Operation, but probably more than offset by their improved steal. Still a great race IMO.

Xxcha - I think their voting trait is buffed a little, lost their first round defense. Probably a little stronger than they were before.
 
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Scott Lewis
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sirjonsnow wrote:
OH, I also need to do a full inventory of my plastic - blue was short an infantry. Is there a breakdown of each unit count? I can figure it out, but that seemed like another shortcoming, just listing a total of 59.

I don't have it handy, but the plastic count per color is exactly the same as those in TI3 (without Mechanical Units, of course).
 
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Jacob Walker
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BeckyRose wrote:
sirjonsnow wrote:
Everyone has all their votes when the Agenda phase hits - understandable to not make you save planets for this phase, but led to very predictable votes against the leader. Might be more even in a 6-player game (we had 4)

I am extremely new to the game, but this struck me as odd too. Would you say it is worth a house rule or would that cause balance issues?


I think the game is much better this way; it's really a pretty clever re-implementation. In the old system, players without many votes were incentivized to use those planets for resources, since they wouldn't have much control in the voting phase anyways. By the same stroke, players with high influence were discouraged from spending that influence anywhere but the vote, which they were hoping to steamroll. My feeling of 3E was that there weren't any difficult decisions when it came to saving influence for agendas because everything boiled down to either "I have lots of votes so I have control of voting" or "I have hardly any votes so I shouldn't bother".

I see several benefits to the new system.

1) Players with lots of votes still got to use all their resources prior to the agenda phase, and probably have better fleets than they would have in 3E. This seems to me to make a political approach to the game more viable, as it doesn't leave you militarily defenseless.
2) Because there are two votes in each agenda phase, players have to be careful about how they spend their votes, and a player with the most influence might find themselves ineffective for a vote having blown all their influence on the other. Player's with low influence counts have a better shot at forming a coalition to turn at least one vote in their favor.
3) The addition of "riders" to the action card deck is an inspired bit of design, particularly in a "vote against the leader" scenario. If the leader plays riders on a vote that's bound to go against him, he can still get some benefit, or if the rider is strong enough, he can even sway the vote in another direction.

Where before I thought politics was boring, in 4E I find that it's actually engaging.
 
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Steve Williams
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Having played 90 games of TI3 and 13 of TI4, I have to say I like TI4 voting better, even without my beloved Counselors from Shards of the Throne.

It is an extremely bizarre game of TI4 in which Mecatol hasn't been taken before the end of Round 2. You'll get plenty of voting in.

In TI3, especially if you didn't cull the political deck, it was 100% incorrect to save your influence for voting instead of dumping it into Command Counters. Command Counters are the most important resource in the game, and even a law that blows out you, personally, and no one else, isn't as bad as being without Command Counters.

TI4 addresses this non-decision elegantly, and the double vote ensures that there is tension even if you would normally be outvoted handily. Riders are brilliant, and I can't wait to see more of them in the inevitable expansion.
 
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Esben Heick
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Ediwir wrote:
esque wrote:
where you can't build that dreadnought because you couldn't resist voting is (imho) more fun


Uuuuuh, you refresh your planets again at he end of the agenda phase.


what

checked

double checked

triple ... you get the picture. Its one of those little changes from ti3 to 4 that I must have missed, taken for granted, something.

My oh my, it sorta feels like its an appropriate time reread every inch of that rulebook - but that's awesome. I love it. Its even better.
 
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