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Subject: Lost card when attacking/healing nothing rss

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Alex Pereira
Australia
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I've seen some questions that are similar but don't appear to answer what I need directly.

Is it possible to use a card that has an action that gets lost, but not actually attack anything and lose it anyway? I ask this for the sole purpose of achieving the Zealot battle goal that requires completing the scenario with 3 or fewer cards in hand and discard pile.
 
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Fito R
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You may only use a card if you can actually carry out some of the actions in it. This varies from card to card, but generally attacks need to be used. You can't "attack nothing" and still gain 1 XP, for example, and neither can you lose a card if you don't actually use it.
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Alex Pereira
Australia
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Joou wrote:
You may only use a card if you can actually carry out some of the actions in it. This varies from card to card, but generally attacks need to be used. You can't "attack nothing" and still gain 1 XP, for example, and neither can you lose a card if you don't actually use it.


In this particular scenario, I would be using Foreful Storm, one of the the Cragheart X abilities.

It has an AoE 3 target ranged attack with disarm, then generates the wind element. I had no enemies within range 3. Could I still generate the wind element part to then lose the card?

 
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Jay Johnson
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Joou wrote:
You may only use a card if you can actually carry out some of the actions in it. This varies from card to card, but generally attacks need to be used. You can't "attack nothing" and still gain 1 XP, for example, and neither can you lose a card if you don't actually use it.

do you have any rules (or rulings from Isaac and/or the FAQ) to support that?

While it is true that you can't use an ability card just to gain XP, I'm fairly sure there is nothing that states you can't use a card to do nothing.

In fact there are numerous situations where the only top actions you have are attacks, but you are unable to attack. So generally you elect to use the "default attack 2" top action, but with no one to attack, you instead just discard the card. (since you generally don't want to avoid losing cards you don't have to).

However, in this particular case, you DO want to lose a card. So the question becomes can you "choose" to use the regular loss action on the card (instead of the default attack 2), but then decline to do all of the abilities on it, but still lose the card?
 
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Fito R
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Well, if you have a default "attack 2" action and don't use it then you're.......... not using it. It obviously is still played and discarded.

In this case, the Loss "ability" is tied to the rest of the card, in the same way that using a card that is normally lost for its basic "Attack 2" mode wouldn't lose it instead. So if you can't carry out any part of that attack or ability... you're not using it. If you can't use, you certainly can't lose it.

klex wrote:
In this particular scenario, I would be using Foreful Storm, one of the the Cragheart X abilities.

It has an AoE 3 target ranged attack with disarm, then generates the wind element. I had no enemies within range 3. Could I still generate the wind element part to then lose the card?

In this case I believe the answer is no, you need to have a valid target to use the card in order to be able to generate the element. And if you can't use it, you cannot lose the card.
 
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Joseph Cochran
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JayJ79 wrote:
Joou wrote:
You may only use a card if you can actually carry out some of the actions in it. This varies from card to card, but generally attacks need to be used. You can't "attack nothing" and still gain 1 XP, for example, and neither can you lose a card if you don't actually use it.

do you have any rules (or rulings from Isaac and/or the FAQ) to support that?


Yes, Isaac has clarified several times that you can't "attack nothing", that you have to have a target to play the card.

JayJ79 wrote:
In fact there are numerous situations where the only top actions you have are attacks, but you are unable to attack. So generally you elect to use the "default attack 2" top action, but with no one to attack, you instead just discard the card. (since you generally don't want to avoid losing cards you don't have to).


That's not correct. You're not choosing the default Attack 2 with no target. You're just discarding the card. You've made an incorrect logical leap by assuming that discarding = using the default.
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Fito R
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I think Jay may have confused "using a card" with "choosing a card from your hand and playing it".
 
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Matthew Gardner
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klex wrote:

In this particular scenario, I would be using Foreful Storm, one of the the Cragheart X abilities.

It has an AoE 3 target ranged attack with disarm, then generates the wind element. I had no enemies within range 3. Could I still generate the wind element part to then lose the card?

According to the FAQ (Abilities - Skipping and Order), you can’t generate the element if you did not attack with this card.

“FAQ” wrote:
Also, at least one ability on the action must be performed in order to gain the a standalone Infusion.

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Scott Wheelock
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You can still accomplish what you want to do within the rules. Just short rest at the end of the turn and you'll lose a card.
 
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Jay Johnson
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guess I was wrong, and you'll have to resort to running yourself through a trap/hazard or standing next to one of the remaining monsters to get them to hit you, and then losing 2 cards from your discard (or 1 from your hand) to avoid the damage in order to pare down your cards.
 
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Fito R
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swheelock wrote:
You can still accomplish what you want to do within the rules. Just short rest at the end of the turn and you'll lose a card.
I thought of this, but short rests are usually announced at the end of a round. But if you fulfill the conditions for scenario completion... doesn't the scenario end before you have the opportunity to rest? Basically, what happens first, the end of the scenario at the end of the round, or the ability to short rest at the end of the round?
 
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Jay Johnson
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Joou wrote:
swheelock wrote:
You can still accomplish what you want to do within the rules. Just short rest at the end of the turn and you'll lose a card.
I thought of this, but short rests are usually announced at the end of a round. But if you fulfill the conditions for scenario completion... doesn't the scenario end before you have the opportunity to rest? Basically, what happens first, the end of the scenario at the end of the round, or the ability to short rest at the end of the round?

the remainder of the round is played out. Cleanup (including short rests) are part of the round.
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Alex Pereira
Australia
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Thanks all, it appears the infusing of an element is a resultant effect of taking the action on the card, much like how XP is gained.

For the purpose of losing the card in this scenario, I think the short rest resolves it! Here's to another perk for me!
 
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