Crimsonsun God
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I think the Rib Blade is really OP and in fact I think that all early game deadly weapons should be either clumbersome or frail for balance purposes. I don't think the Rib Blade is alone in being OP as far as the Gorm is concerned, as by and large its weapons are simply better than those found outside the blacksmith in the core game so they are not only better but also cost less investment.

Compare a Rib Blade to a Zambato (you can't look at different weapons due to profs which grand weapon is top tier* anyway). A Rib Blade has 1 less strength, lacks Devestating but isn't frail and is a one handed weapon. Lets ignore that fact it costs less resources and doesn't require additional settlement development to access in the first place. The strength difference is so minor because by the time its actually struggling to wound 1 point is meaningless so the Zambato is in the same situation. Devestating is a big deal, but only against Nemesis which is 1/5 fights against a quarry you'd be lowering your chances to farm additional resources countering its positive somewhat so 20% of the time the Zambato has a great additional quality yet its those fights that are the most likely ones to trigger frail which is a huge deal, I think I'm being generous to the Zambato to say they negate one another in terms of benfit. Leaving the fact that the Rib Blade isn't two handed which means it has a lot of advantages in build combos.. Cost for cost the Rib Blade easily comes out on top and it plainly shouldn't.

The thing that makes the Vespertine Bow stand out as OP is that Bows are really OP due to have a top tier prof* and they are one of only two weapon types you can have other items in your grid buffing and customising them (katana's is the other but that's got a shit prof) Arrows and Quivers, Arrows are a massive addition offering a whole host of unique options that still benefit from your prof and range making them immensely versitile.

The Rib Blade isn't alone in the Gorm (the earlist level Quarry type) that's somewhat questionable in terms of balance, the Greater Gaxe is fantastic and the riot mace is better than any core game hammer I can think of. The Black Sword stands better in my mind partly due to it being a sword and that it's true power requires you to be a sword master making the item attainable early but not actually be fully powered up until late game. I keep looking at the Gorm equipment and comparing it to stuff found on later quarry monsters or in the weapon crafter and it's plainly just superior and thats not a good thing.

I won't argue that the Quarry monster craftable items balance seems completely bonkers in places. The Sunstalker gear feels like its about spot on however comparing it to the two other quarries that are of equal difficulty to face (Phoenix & Dragon King) then being out numbered 2-1 would suggest its gear is too good. The Dung beetle has the best quarry gear thus far but its also the most difficult fight so that's fine though its gear is so far above those of the Phoenix & Dragon King that's its not even competitive. However the simple fact that the Gorms equipment is at least equal to anything crafted directly from a core game quarry suggests its rather OP.

*Weapon Prof's fall into several types, those of the top tier I think are actually too good have amazing specialisations and mastery abilities such as the Bow, Grand Weapon & Axe. You then have some profs that have strong specialisations but utterly underwhelming masteries I find these hugely anticlimatic especially as Spear and Shield are prime examples that are essential to pursue yet the masters are just essentially taking one for the team which is pretty dull. You then have my fav group of profs those that are just solid all round but not the power houses the top tier ones are, Sword, Katar, scyth, whip and I'm putting fist and tooth here because its limited by being fist and tooth. Then you have rest like Daggers and Katana's that are just meh why bother what a waste of weapon training. Scythe is currently my fav prof because of how it mixes things up, providing alternative build styles (DPS back up Trapper) not normally seen and is well balanced as a result. Really looking forwards to seeing more scythes (Death Armour has one 100%) as a result.

Comments and opinions welcome.. Anyone feel the Rib Blade goes too far? zombie
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Steve Trewartha
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If you are comparing the rib blade to the zanbato then yeah it is definitely much better. Like you said missing frail is a pretty big benefit and being available from essentially the first time you fight a gorm. Isolated, it doesn't feel like an overpowered weapon. Just better than others in the same category.

Balance is going to be an interesting and very tricky thing going forward for the team. With so much gear already, it is very easy to miss or overlook potentially broken combos. Throw in another 12-15 expansions in a couple years and the amount of potential combinations is just staggering.
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Fen Batten
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Not really, it's a well balanced weapon that's good, but not overpowered. When you are in expansion land the Zanbato has its own place because of calcification. Zanbato's carry into the late game, Rib Blades don't without support from Cycloid Scale Armor (which carries all weapons into the late game).

The problem is not that Gorm gear is too good, it's that Phoenix and Dragon King gear is shite. Our Community Edition (approaching Part 1 release) is working on fixing that and giving viable alternatives.
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Alessio Massuoli
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Rib Blade is not OP.
Compare that with the other deadly weapon of the same tier: Lion Beast Katar.

Availability:

RB: Defeat a Gorm (LY1 Quarry) to unlock the Gormery.
LBK: Defeat a White Lion (LY1 Quarry) to unlock the Catarium.

Absolute parity here.

Resource cost:
RB: 1 Generic, 1 Monster specific.
LBK: 1 Generic, 1 Monster specific.

Again, absolute parity here.

Attack profile:
RB: 1/6/5
LBK: 2/7/3

Rib Blade has a 50% base chance of hitting ONCE, while LBK has a 64% base chance of hitting ONCE, and an added chance of hitting TWICE.
For wounding, let's compare toughness 8 (most common for L1 Node 1 monsters) wound chances: Rib Blade has a 80% base chance of wounding ONCE, Lion Beast Katar has a 60% base chance of wounding once, but with the added benefit of being able to wound TWICE (again, 60% base chance on second attempt).

While these fit different playstyles, I think it is safely said that these are comparable. Personally, I take both in my runs with both monsters, so at least on this account and on just an empyrical observation, the two weapons are extremely comparable.

Abilities:

RB: Slow/Deadly
LBK: Paired/Deadly

This is another blatant parity. Deadly is the same on both weapons, and bestows the same crit chance. Slow/Paired are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but serve the same purpose: Slow is NECESSARY to low speed builds, Paired is NECESSARY to high speed builds. Tactics, strategies and personal preferences aside, the abilities are absolutely comparable.

The Gorm as a whole brings in a lot of diversity and some boons (double type resources and the Gormchymist), but you pay for both (in clogging the innovation deck and by getting Gorm Weather), so in the end is an extremely balanced expansion.

About Rib Blade in the specific, you can see by the above comparison that if you state that it is OP, the same could be said about LBK. I don't think anyone thinks LBK is OP.

For the higher tiers, Zanbato can be Calcified (see DBK, we can talk of expansions since you mention an expansion weapon) and it is by far my grand weapon of choice (except some obvious late game choices, but I like calcified zanbato better), and Devastating is a nemesis-killer. For all the rest, quote Fen entirely.


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The others have made some excellent points (as is often the case), but I'd also like to add that as sweet as much of the Gorm-loot is (especially the potions and a few of the harder to get equipment (Black Sword, Riot Mace, Pulse Lantern)), I feel like Gorm does balance it all out with the quite dreadful Gorm Climate-event that will often plague you well into your mid-to-late game.

When ever starting a new campaign, I know for a fact that despite the Gorms amazing equipment (and the rare fact that it offers gear that is perfectly acceptable and even brilliant at late game unlike the White Lion (maybe the Lion Eye Circlet and Whisker Harp not withstanding)), I still always hesitate for a moment before adding the giant monster baby into the mix.

That said, I do generally love adding it into my campaigns simply because it is a brilliantly different and awesome monster that grows beautifully in difficulty and gains as the campaign progresses (fairly early access to Burning Hands with lvl 2 and the sweet Regeneration Suit for mid to late game from lvl 3).
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Crimsonsun God
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fenpaints wrote:
Not really, it's a well balanced weapon that's good, but not overpowered. When you are in expansion land the Zanbato has its own place because of calcification. Zanbato's carry into the late game, Rib Blades don't without support from Cycloid Scale Armor (which carries all weapons into the late game).

The problem is not that Gorm gear is too good, it's that Phoenix and Dragon King gear is shite. Our Community Edition (approaching Part 1 release) is working on fixing that and giving viable alternatives.


Agreed that Zanbato's can be calcified but that's further investment and I'm not sure its worth it compared to the fantastic high tier grand weapon options we have. I find straight up as they are they will both carry into the mid games and tail off. I'd actually say the Rib Blades better because I can be a double Rib Blade Sushi master and tear a new one though low tier monsters.

While I'm also of the conclusion Dragon King and Phoenix gear is utterly below par for the level and resource requirements that's very much a case of subjective opinion and when looking at balance you have to compare to the largest quanity of gear at a challenge level of which there's 3 monsters sitting there and two are balanced against one another leaving them as the logical base line. I'm not saying this is right as I think someone really dropped the ball on this stuff but as it is they should be the power base line as the majority has to rule.
 
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Crimsonsun God
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t3clis wrote:
Rib Blade is not OP.
Compare that with the other deadly weapon of the same tier: Lion Beast Katar.

Availability:

RB: Defeat a Gorm (LY1 Quarry) to unlock the Gormery.
LBK: Defeat a White Lion (LY1 Quarry) to unlock the Catarium.

Absolute parity here.

Resource cost:
RB: 1 Generic, 1 Monster specific.
LBK: 1 Generic, 1 Monster specific.

Again, absolute parity here.

Attack profile:
RB: 1/6/5
LBK: 2/7/3

Rib Blade has a 50% base chance of hitting ONCE, while LBK has a 64% base chance of hitting ONCE, and an added chance of hitting TWICE.
For wounding, let's compare toughness 8 (most common for L1 Node 1 monsters) wound chances: Rib Blade has a 80% base chance of wounding ONCE, Lion Beast Katar has a 60% base chance of wounding once, but with the added benefit of being able to wound TWICE (again, 60% base chance on second attempt).

While these fit different playstyles, I think it is safely said that these are comparable. Personally, I take both in my runs with both monsters, so at least on this account and on just an empyrical observation, the two weapons are extremely comparable.

Abilities:

RB: Slow/Deadly
LBK: Paired/Deadly

This is another blatant parity. Deadly is the same on both weapons, and bestows the same crit chance. Slow/Paired are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but serve the same purpose: Slow is NECESSARY to low speed builds, Paired is NECESSARY to high speed builds. Tactics, strategies and personal preferences aside, the abilities are absolutely comparable.

The Gorm as a whole brings in a lot of diversity and some boons (double type resources and the Gormchymist), but you pay for both (in clogging the innovation deck and by getting Gorm Weather), so in the end is an extremely balanced expansion.

About Rib Blade in the specific, you can see by the above comparison that if you state that it is OP, the same could be said about LBK. I don't think anyone thinks LBK is OP.

For the higher tiers, Zanbato can be Calcified (see DBK, we can talk of expansions since you mention an expansion weapon) and it is by far my grand weapon of choice (except some obvious late game choices, but I like calcified zanbato better), and Devastating is a nemesis-killer. For all the rest, quote Fen entirely.




Thing is the Rib Blade carries better into the mid game where toughness increases are minor so one or two points of strength matter. Paired is also liability comparaitively as more hits equals more reactions so it can't be ignored and if your pairing them then you'd be better to blood paint them but you can go that route with the Rib Blade and really start to leave those Katars behind.

I agree however for level one hunts these weapons do match up great but the Katars just don't keep on going in the same way a Rib Blade does. Think about weapon upgrades as you go though the LY the only reason you'd not alter the Katars once your hunting lvl 2's is because there's no better replacements until much later on Dung Beetle, though the dragon ones are pretty good I believe. I think the Rib blade is one of the last weapons that gets upgraded because its still doing its thing and its not for lack of alternatives either. Grand weapons have some of the best late game support they are the weapon that just keeps on giving.

I'm not saying its a bow in terms of power but I just think its return for investment is as good as it gets in terms of min max your resource returns that is on the level of getting too good.
 
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Sickbunny wrote:
The others have made some excellent points (as is often the case), but I'd also like to add that as sweet as much of the Gorm-loot is (especially the potions and a few of the harder to get equipment (Black Sword, Riot Mace, Pulse Lantern)), I feel like Gorm does balance it all out with the quite dreadful Gorm Climate-event that will often plague you well into your mid-to-late game.

When ever starting a new campaign, I know for a fact that despite the Gorms amazing equipment (and the rare fact that it offers gear that is perfectly acceptable and even brilliant at late game unlike the White Lion (maybe the Lion Eye Circlet and Whisker Harp not withstanding)), I still always hesitate for a moment before adding the giant monster baby into the mix.

That said, I do generally love adding it into my campaigns simply because it is a brilliantly different and awesome monster that grows beautifully in difficulty and gains as the campaign progresses (fairly early access to Burning Hands with lvl 2 and the sweet Regeneration Suit for mid to late game from lvl 3).


I was avoiding talking about the Climate because as annoying as it is, it does provide some additional benefits such has the chance of innovating hovel and its one of the most steady sources of courage you can find.

I'm not saying the Gorm is bad either its great and I'm so excited to see what else comes in as low level quarries and low level encounters to mix up the early game in the future months/years. I'm just surprised no one has spoken about the Rib Blade most specifically its the lack of frail so its the blade that seems to go on and on in a campaign with good results.

A game of this size with 12 expansions is a mamoth task to balance especially as data collected isn't quntified in the game way as a video game but the scope is along the same lines and with another 18 expansions coming this is only going to get worse especially as there's been no attempt to rework weapon profs in 1.5 but I'm not afraid to call it where I see it either and while not in any way a game breaking weapon I can't think of a tier1 weapon that gives as much return as the Rib Blade (maybe the bow), I'm talking purely weapons here utility items and Armour are a whole different world of issues. lol
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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I agree on the point that this game offers choices which are mindlessly better than others - because of this, Rib Blade must be done as soon as possible if that's an option, especially by how good Grand weapons specialization is (PS: if you blood paint wield Rib Blade, the second one has no Deadly, of course).

Anyway, having a Rib Blade does not make Zanbato crap (and I actually always craft it when I can calcify it, both to have something to throw to get a trash crown if I fail, both because I actually carry a Calcified Zanbato at least up to the watcher fight, even in a world with the Perfect Slayer

The comparison which is right the rib blade is with the katars - and the rib blade scales maybe a bit better (but again, high speed advocates will find katars way more appealing even early midgame), but to answer original questions, this does not make them in no way overpowered, this makes the rib blade one of the "better" choices.
 
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Crimsonsun God
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Yeah I knew about the loss of Deadly which actually makes the Rib Blade fantastic to pair either with a Shield for free blocking or with a Katar/gaxe for really trying to get the most out of your assault.

I want to make it clear, I'm not trying to hate on the game and I'm very interested in the community edition rules so have been keeping my eyes open for info on that because there are just too many occasions when a choice is clearly better which only goes to create the impression for choice because there really isn't any choice if you catch my drift.
 
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A few people have responded, but another response to what I believe are some of your misconceptions:

The rib blade is pretty nice, but really only in the early game: I'd take one against an early quarry any day of the week. But strength and devastating matter a ton if you're looking for damage per action. If you already have a HL revealing mechanic (which you probably will), the RB's only substantial advantages are a small amount of flexibility and easy luck 2 (remember: you don't need to unlock devastating).

Its strength is pretty mediocre for a slow weapon. What it amounts to in my experience is a fantastic farming/training weapon early on, and by mid-late game it doesn't matter at all.


You also don't seem to understand what makes the VB strong: like most strong things in KD, it's control. Controlling your range and attack volume is something huge; it often makes the weapon fantastic against range-based traps and reactions, and, if you're conservative, really able to fish for HLs on a weapon that can, if you need to, put out a decently high attack volume.

The Black Sword, too, is one where people fixate on that heinous high str it can unlock, but since when is str 10 (+ 1-4 from native stats, probably) anything short of strong for the first half of the game? Are you taking on legendaries after a lucky butcher fight?

Sorry if the above sounds harsh, but it feels like a lot of your value of weapons is based on conventional wisdom rather than abilities, and since you're trying to assess them, a different approach.

I also agree with the response that the Phoenix (I haven't played the DK as a quarry) is hindered by poor gear, more than this stuff is OP.

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Jessie Christian
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So another thing that I'm not sure was mentioned in this thread was the cost to get these items. The Rib Blade is two resources and can be made from one Gorm Hunt typically. If we are comparing it to the Vespertine Bow, you can make one from typically one hunt with the Flower Knight, though I have heard some people have success with making 2-3 in only one showdown with Flower Knight. The FK shows up in lantern year 5, so you have access to an absolutely broken weapon super early in the game. By comparison it makes all other bows less desirable, even though the Arc Bow and the Ink Blood Bow are great weapons in their own right. When I think of the Rib Blade, I think of a really good early game weapon (probably one of the best early game weapons available), that theoretically if you have enough strengh or luck, can carry you into the late game. But, it also doesn't trivialize the choice of other late game grand weapons. I would totally upgrade to a Skleaver or Dragon Slayer if the opportunity presented itself. The Rib Blade doesn't make all other Grand Weapons irrelevant, despite how good it may be.

Most items from the Gorm were meant to complement the core game by giving you weapon types you could train proficiency in early, without having to unlock Weapon Crafter or Leather Worker. Maybe the cost for some of the weapons could be a little bit higher, but none of them are OP when put toe to toe with the FK Bow.
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I've heard people talk about how busted the Vespertine Bow is, so since I have been playing the core for a few months and can actually evaluate cards now I finally decided to try and find an image of it and see what all the fuss was about.

When I finally found an image my reaction was something like this:

"Wow, three speed hit on 6+ 6 strength is really good, I can see why people thing this thing is so powerful. I'll just read the rest of what this does down at the bottom and HOLY ####! ARE YOU ####ING KIDDING ME? THIS IS THE MOST BROKEN ####ING THING I'VE EVER SEEN! HOW THE HELL DID THIS GET PAST PLAYTESTING?!?!?!?!? THEY HAVE PLAYTESTING, RIGHT?".

Anyway, as far as the Rib Blade vs. the Zanbato, the latter seems better to me. The Rib Blade trades Devastating 1 and 1 strength for not having Frail. When you Cat Eye Circlet every single turn you don't care about Frail, it's not a problem. Devastating is a ridiculously powerful ability, it's literally 2x as good as not having Devastating. The only time you don't want it is when you're crit farming and then you just don't activate the Zanbato.
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Yeah... given how they treat speed, I think there's some disconnect where the KD crew seems to think that high speed is awesome, while most veteran fans think that low and very controllable speed is what you want, so they think that losing speed is a penalty and not control.

Well, that's the only way I have to explain things like paired, katanas, and "sacrificing" speed for range. I'd be very curious to see how the KD design crew tests, since there are quite a few things that my group would never seriously consider getting.
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spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yeah... given how they treat speed, I think there's some disconnect where the KD crew seems to think that high speed is awesome, while most veteran fans think that low and very controllable speed is what you want, so they think that losing speed is a penalty and not control.

Well, that's the only way I have to explain things like paired, katanas, and "sacrificing" speed for range. I'd be very curious to see how the KD design crew tests, since there are quite a few things that my group would never seriously consider getting.


We are all secretly hoping that the abyssal woods campaign fixes the Flower Knight and Improves Spidicules cause they are both good expansions just not quite what they could be.
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gorkel wrote:
spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yeah... given how they treat speed, I think there's some disconnect where the KD crew seems to think that high speed is awesome, while most veteran fans think that low and very controllable speed is what you want, so they think that losing speed is a penalty and not control.

Well, that's the only way I have to explain things like paired, katanas, and "sacrificing" speed for range. I'd be very curious to see how the KD design crew tests, since there are quite a few things that my group would never seriously consider getting.


We are all secretly hoping that the abyssal woods campaign fixes the Flower Knight and Improves Spidicules cause they are both good expansions just not quite what they could be.

I wouldn't say "secretly."
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I agree that most of the Gorm gear is incredibly good and a lot of core gear looks bad in comparison. As you said, the weapon crafter looks bad against it (although CW-Axe is very comparable to Greater Gaxe. No heavy!). However, this seems to be part of the design to me - adding Gorm puts in the annnoying as hell storm that occurs every year, either reducing your resources, innovations... or SotF rerolls . Also the innovations are pretty garbage and dilute up your inno deck (with one), but +1 Survival Limit is great.

This is at odds with how the FK expansion just throws tons of goodies at you at no cost whatsoever. The vespertine also can break encounters due to the ridiculous range and lack of cumbersome so early. The rib blade doesn't do anything like that (though greatswords can break encounters, but that's the weapon class).



Zanbato and R-B are two pretty different weapons... Devastating is amazing and basically a Zanbato user will have 2x the "DPS" of a R-B and this can help kill hard monsters. Hard battles like the KM, DBK (wis-pot and/or calcified because superdense) are made much easier with a Zanbato user as they cycle through less reactions while still killing it fast. Crits are great for farming though.

The main thing though is that R-B's affinities are really great whereas Zanbato's affinities are restrictive to get the Devastating. Frail is a pain in the ass and crap KDM game design imo, but whatever. Dealing with it sucks.

Either way the two weapons have two different roles, if you have a Zanbato GW user they are a reliable and sweet source of wounds whereas a R-B user will be just "ok" with 1 wound per action, but better crits and higher chance of that sweet knockdown. There are plenty of times I would rather have a Zanbato.



One thing I do find is that making a R-B is very easy. This is probably 100% anecdotal but the resource it requires might be in the deck too much? The Greater Gaxe or Knuckle Shield usually take us longer to get to make. Dunno, will have to look at the deck sometime.
 
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