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Subject: 4 Players - Wrong Colours? + Discussion on high xp / wastes scenario 1 rss

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Michael Cox
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First let me say that this game is fantastic and so much fun. (current main character is at 223 xp, yes we play this a lot)

Here's a situation we've come across and can't find an answer in the rulebook, forum, faq, or errata.

What do you do when you get a group together that consists of:

1 Wizard
1 Ranger
1 Bard
1 Rogue

Thats 2 reds, 1 blue, and 1 black... no green.

Does someone dual spec? similar to 2-3 player rules?

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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
xetroV76 wrote:
First let me say that this game is fantastic and so much fun. (current main character is at 223 xp, yes we play this a lot)

Here's a situation we've come across and can't find an answer in the rulebook, forum, faq, or errata.

What do you do when you get a group together that consists of:

1 Wizard
1 Ranger
1 Bard
1 Rogue

Thats 2 reds, 1 blue, and 1 black... no green.

Does someone dual spec? similar to 2-3 player rules?


The rules strongly imply that you shouldn't do that, and that either the Bard or Rogue should take a Cleric or Druid instead.

However - the world doesn't always work that way, and there have been some thought experiments surrounding concepts like 3 Deception classes, each with a different subclass (Martial, Devotion, Arcane). Maybe give them funny names like D'Artagan, Aramis and Porthos.

So -- one of the characters, probably your Bard, should dual class into Devotion. (Bards are good at being second best at anything.)

Normally dual classing is only seen for groups under 4, but at the same time, every class MUST be represented.

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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
and the relevant rules quote (it is in a sidebar on p4):

Quote:
CLASS TYPES IN A GAME
For the most balanced game experience, a party should always
include all four Class Types: Arcane, Deception, Devotion, and Martial.
Yet players can choose from whatever Character screens are
available. If any Class Types are not present among the selected
Character screens, those must still be represented in the game.
Choose one or more players to represent the absent Class Types:
these players still select one Character screen as their primary
Class Type, but for the purposes of encounters, Skill Checks—
and any “Requires X Class” rules on Market cards—they are also
considered to be the second Class Type as well. (You can take both
Class Type markers as a reminder.) For example, if no one chooses
to be a Deception-based character, one of the players must take
a Deception Class Type marker in addition to their chosen Class
Type; this means they can buy and play “Requires Deception
Class” cards, any encounters that need to be placed in front of a
Deception character will face that player, and so on.
The only exception to the above rule is if a card specifically calls out
“primary Class Type” for its effect, then the second Class Type does
not count. For example, for the Old Enemies Dragonfire card, the
drawn encounter will only face the player if the encounter matches the
player’s primary Class Type, regardless of their second Class Type.
The game assumes that players will choose no more than two
of a Class Type per game; hence the two markers per Class Type. If
players wish to play more than two of a Class Type in a game they’ll
need to use some other means for tracking their movement as well
as determining first encounter placement.
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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
xetroV76 wrote:
First let me say that this game is fantastic and so much fun. (current main character is at 223 xp, yes we play this a lot)


223 xp should be level 7:

100-149 (level 5)
150-209 (level 6)
210-279 (level 7)

I'm curious how you're playing at undefined character levels (since the box only defines the game to level 5).
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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
Rules only state 100+ xp = Level 5.

Is there a max XP cap defined by the devs somewhere? There logically would be I would think but I see nothing on it officially.
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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
kcurtis wrote:
Rules only state 100+ xp = Level 5.

Is there a max XP cap defined by the devs somewhere? There logically would be I would think but I see nothing on it officially.

The question is not regarding a cap on XP, because there isn't one at this point.

I presume this group is running the same Level 4 Adventures/Level 5 Dungeon Crawl repeatedly, perhaps taking advantage of the Optional Rules tweaks to give a slightly better XP return. There are no rules for leveling up the difficulty of the base's or current expansions' content past Level 4, except for the Dungeon Crawl which provides rules to bring the difficulty up to Level 5.

I'm not overly shocked someone could have chosen to play the content while far outleveling it; we had reached the same point in Shadowrun: Crossfire with our regular crew, to the point where we were considering trying to take on the dragon with only 2 players. With this game, instead of continuing to run a single pairing ad infinitum, we've repeatedly changed out combinations of characters because there are far more options to play around with.

The problem I can see running into at higher levels is running out of Feature Slots and/or hitting a point of diminishing returns because what Features become newly available are that much further apart in XP cost, without the Adventures becoming significantly more profitable in XP return or in terms of Magic Items earned. Remember, you only earn a Magic Item the first time you win a scenario, at whatever level you were at when you played the scenario.
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Michael Cox
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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
We've hit 100 xp, now are level 5 and just keep playing. Gaining more and more xp. It's a lot of work to get up to the higher xp levels so you can activate the extra slots and gain the really cool abilities. I haven't been able to find anything that says not to keep playing once you hit level 5.

On that note I can safely say that even with the higher xp and abilities, we still cannot beat the first mission of the campaign. We've been able to beat every other mission. We've tried scenario 1 of wastes so many times, it's actually turning some of us off the game as it's seems impossible..
 
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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
p27:
Quote:
* Dungeon Crawl At Adventure Level 5: The standard Dungeon
Crawl Adventure is modified as follows: After Scene Three ends,
start Scene Four; reveal a number of encounters equal to the number
of players + 3. Additionally, after selecting the Difficulty 1 and
Difficulty 2 Decks to use as the Primary and Secondary Decks,
shuffle all Difficulty 3 cards into a new third deck (until future
Difficulty 3 cards are available, you may ignore their Environment
icons). When revealing encounters at the start of a Scene, for every
three Dragonfire levels, first reveal a Difficulty 3 card. Then finish
the remaining Dragonfire level count with Difficulty 2 cards, and
then the remaining encounters with Difficulty 1 cards (if needed).
For example, if playing a six-player Dungeon Crawl Adventure
Level 5 at the start of Scene Four and the Dragonfire level is 7, the
following cards would be revealed, in the following order: two Difficulty
3, five Difficulty 2, two Difficulty 1, and finally, due to six
players, one Difficulty 2 with no gold.
Other Adventures cannot use these Adventure Level 5 rules.


---

There has to exist levels beyond 5 because currently there is no way to obtain the "Very Rare" magic items in the box.

The progression I gave above is the logical breakdown for XP for levels 6 and 7.
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Michael Cox
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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
Principia wrote:
kcurtis wrote:
Rules only state 100+ xp = Level 5.

Is there a max XP cap defined by the devs somewhere? There logically would be I would think but I see nothing on it officially.

The question is not regarding a cap on XP, because there isn't one at this point.

I presume this group is running the same Level 4 Adventures/Level 5 Dungeon Crawl repeatedly, perhaps taking advantage of the Optional Rules tweaks to give a slightly better XP return. There are no rules for leveling up the difficulty of the base's or current expansions' content past Level 4, except for the Dungeon Crawl which provides rules to bring the difficulty up to Level 5.

I'm not overly shocked someone could have chosen to play the content while far outleveling it; we had reached the same point in Shadowrun: Crossfire with our regular crew, to the point where we were considering trying to take on the dragon with only 2 players. With this game, instead of continuing to run a single pairing ad infinitum, we've repeatedly changed out combinations of characters because there are far more options to play around with.

The problem I can see running into at higher levels is running out of Feature Slots and/or hitting a point of diminishing returns because what Features become newly available are that much further apart in XP cost, without the Adventures becoming significantly more profitable in XP return or in terms of Magic Items earned. Remember, you only earn a Magic Item the first time you win a scenario, at whatever level you were at when you played the scenario.


You have presumed fairly correctly. We have been introducing new people to the game and playing our "main" characters most of the time. Sometimes we've started a second character and begun leveling them up. We've only dished out magic items on the first successful completion of the dungeon level. Some of us have traded magic items to each other to better suit the class type. We're really enjoying the game now that we have cool abilities like spell sniper, empowered evocation, evocation savant, etc. My friend loves his beastmaster abilities as well.

Why would anyone not continue to play to the higher xp values to try out the really cool stickers. We do get that we should be level 6 or 7 by now but without proper rules to state that we're kinda stuck at level 5.

We're also pushing over 50+ plays of the game now, got 2 of the expansions, and only got the game at christmas.
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Michael Cox
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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
byronczimmer wrote:
p27:
Quote:
* Dungeon Crawl At Adventure Level 5: The standard Dungeon
Crawl Adventure is modified as follows: After Scene Three ends,
start Scene Four; reveal a number of encounters equal to the number
of players + 3. Additionally, after selecting the Difficulty 1 and
Difficulty 2 Decks to use as the Primary and Secondary Decks,
shuffle all Difficulty 3 cards into a new third deck (until future
Difficulty 3 cards are available, you may ignore their Environment
icons). When revealing encounters at the start of a Scene, for every
three Dragonfire levels, first reveal a Difficulty 3 card. Then finish
the remaining Dragonfire level count with Difficulty 2 cards, and
then the remaining encounters with Difficulty 1 cards (if needed).
For example, if playing a six-player Dungeon Crawl Adventure
Level 5 at the start of Scene Four and the Dragonfire level is 7, the
following cards would be revealed, in the following order: two Difficulty
3, five Difficulty 2, two Difficulty 1, and finally, due to six
players, one Difficulty 2 with no gold.
Other Adventures cannot use these Adventure Level 5 rules.


---

There has to exist levels beyond 5 because currently there is no way to obtain the "Very Rare" magic items in the box.

The progression I gave above is the logical breakdown for XP for levels 6 and 7.


Agreed and we've determined that logical progression on our own as well but have steadfastly remained level 5. The very rare items are teasing us... we wantssss our precioussss..
 
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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
Yeah my point was if the devs wanted there to be a temporary xp cap until future content was released (thus temporarily holding your character capped at 149 xp level 5 for example) I wish this had been officially stated.

Otherwise there is no reason a person couldn’t choose to continually level up a character as the OP has done.
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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
xetroV76 wrote:
On that note I can safely say that even with the higher xp and abilities, we still cannot beat the first mission of the campaign. We've been able to beat every other mission. We've tried scenario 1 of wastes so many times, it's actually turning some of us off the game as it's seems impossible..


This is more concerning. I've beaten it at least 5 of the times I've played it, ranging from 2p to 5p.

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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
Found it.
Dev Blog:

http://dragonfirethegame.com/2017/07/14/tempering-slow-heati...
Quote:
Finally, we come to the Difficulty Rating 3 cards. I discussed in a previous post that we divided all the creatures from D&D into four Difficulty Ratings. And you won’t see Difficulty Rating 4 cards for some time. In fact, you won’t really see us starting to really flesh out Difficulty Rating 3 cards for a short time yet. However, it slowly became apparent a month ago that the base game needed a few such cards. This served several purposes.

First, the base game only goes up through Character/Adventure Levels 4. If we wanted to give you a way to play at Level 5 before we started fully supporting those in future releases, those Rating 3 cards were a must.



And:

http://dragonfirethegame.com/2017/06/14/grinding-the-blade/
Quote:
Just last week we were playtesting an Adventure Level 5 game that included four Scenes of play (as opposed to the usual three Scenes), and the Green Hag showed up Scene one.



Higher level content is coming... and I fully expect levels above '5' to eventually happen. Where those will be on the XP track? Not sure.


___
an aside: I forgot how overused 'level' is in D&D. My poor search engine is crying.
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Michael Cox
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Re: 4 Players - Wrong Colours?
byronczimmer wrote:
xetroV76 wrote:
On that note I can safely say that even with the higher xp and abilities, we still cannot beat the first mission of the campaign. We've been able to beat every other mission. We've tried scenario 1 of wastes so many times, it's actually turning some of us off the game as it's seems impossible..


This is more concerning. I've beaten it at least 5 of the times I've played it, ranging from 2p to 5p.



Wastes scenario 1: As we understand it.

Scene 1-3 deal out encounters the same way as the dungeon crawl adventure.
After dealing out encounters. Assign tokens.
If non-location encounter is the same colour as the player facing it. Place 3 tokens at (1hp/1dam) in front of that player. Then that player having 3 or more tokens will draw a single card. If the encounter is not their colour then it will only give them 1 token. Repeat this for all 3 scenes with the tokens changing to (1hp/2dam) and (2hp/2dam).

Everytime we try to beat this mission we usually die horribly on the third scene.
 
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xetroV76 wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
xetroV76 wrote:
On that note I can safely say that even with the higher xp and abilities, we still cannot beat the first mission of the campaign. We've been able to beat every other mission. We've tried scenario 1 of wastes so many times, it's actually turning some of us off the game as it's seems impossible..


This is more concerning. I've beaten it at least 5 of the times I've played it, ranging from 2p to 5p.



Wastes scenario 1: As we understand it.

Scene 1-3 deal out encounters the same way as the dungeon crawl adventure.
After dealing out encounters. Assign tokens.
If non-location encounter is the same colour as the player facing it. Place 3 tokens at (1hp/1dam) in front of that player. Then that player having 3 or more tokens will draw a single card. If the encounter is not their colour then it will only give them 1 token. Repeat this for all 3 scenes with the tokens changing to (1hp/2dam) and (2hp/2dam).

Everytime we try to beat this mission we usually die horribly on the third scene.


Correct understanding.
You are drawing a card at 3+ tokens.
Have you read my level 1 strategy guide? There may be some pointers there.
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Between myself and my hunter friend.. I believe we've both read every post / blog / faq / errata that we can find on this game. Your strategy guide was helpful but we've just about given up on wastes scenario 1.
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xetroV76 wrote:
Between myself and my hunter friend.. I believe we've both read every post / blog / faq / errata that we can find on this game. Your strategy guide was helpful but we've just about given up on wastes scenario 1.


One of the pairings my wife and I selected had some difficulties with Wastes. We pressed on, failing repeatedly until we got to 30xp, which meant we were level 3. Then, as our swap-out, we both took a Flaming Oil. We won the next try without any issues.
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His beastmaster and my evoker are going to give this a go tonight and see if level 6&7 can beat it.
 
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xetroV76 wrote:
His beastmaster and my evoker are going to give this a go tonight and see if level 6&7 can beat it.


5 points of swap ins... Hmm..

Flaming Oil + Javelin for the Beastmaster most assuredly.

Evoker? Flaming Oil + Magic Missle (assuming you have the Feature that lowers the cost of Evocation cards by $1).

I don't know your other Features, but if you have 5xp to spare, bringing along a Caravan is probably worthwhile - unless you have a reliable way to dispose of the token hoards quickly.
 
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Evoker: Spell Sniper, Evocation Savant, Arcane Recovery II, Sculpt Spells, Empowered Evocation.

Hunter: Ranger Class, Beastmaster, Rangers Companion II, Bestial Fury II
 
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xetroV76 wrote:
Evoker: Spell Sniper, Evocation Savant, Arcane Recovery II, Sculpt Spells, Empowered Evocation.

Hunter: Ranger Class, Beastmaster, Rangers Companion II, Bestial Fury II


One of the great things about this game is the ability for people to try different paths. I do find there has to be a willingness to try a different tactic if the current one is failing.

Sculpt Spells only affects two cards: Fireball and Magic Missile. Now, yes, both of those are Evocations, which plays into the Evoker's wheelhouse, but in 2p, I'm not sure how often the extra target is actually useful.

My wife played the Ranger in our pairing that had a Ranger -- she found a great deal of success with the other subclassing options for the Ranger, though that was before recent clarifications concerning the Beastmaster Features was released.

One thing to keep in mind is that Damage is king. A feature that does not directly affect the damage output of the team should be reconsidered - especially in a 2p scenario. Fast takedowns trump fluff.
 
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The magic missle hitting 4 tokens is awesome. Combo that with the discard a card to do colourless damage to the first target based on empowered evocation... discard a 3 cost and do 6 more damage.

We're trying to maximize the token mitigation.
 
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xetroV76 wrote:
The magic missle hitting 4 tokens is awesome. Combo that with the discard a card to do colourless damage to the first target based on empowered evocation... discard a 3 cost and do 6 more damage.

We're trying to maximize the token mitigation.


Let us know how it goes.
 
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Tried it with three Max level characters. Failure both tries. Made it to scene 3 both times.
 
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xetroV76 wrote:
Tried it with three Max level characters. Failure both tries. Made it to scene 3 both times.


I'm now intensely curious about why.
 
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