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Subject: Multi-target Ranged Attack Focusing rss

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Jared Miller
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Was just taking that rules quiz, which brought a lot of rules to light that I was probably getting wrong. It got me thinking about this example, and I just wanted to be sure I was getting it correct:

If M1's ability card reads:

Move 1
Attack 1
Range 3
Target 2



It would move to 'a' and attack C1 and C3, right? (The numbers on the C's are initiative, but I don't think they're relevant here).
 
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Darren Nakamura
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That's how I'd rule it, yes. Its main focus is C3, and it will move to get rid of Disadvantage from that. Its secondary focus is C1 since it's closer in proximity than C2. Moving to a will allow it to attack both.
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Chris Willott
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Yup.
 
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Gorka Muniozguren
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Dexter345 wrote:
That's how I'd rule it, yes. Its main focus is C3, and it will move to get rid of Disadvantage from that. Its secondary focus is C1 since it's closer in proximity than C2. Moving to a will allow it to attack both.


I dont know why do you choose a secondary focus. In the rulebook i cant find it. I think each monster only has one focus. Maybe i am wrong.

I think M1 focus on C3, then move to "a" (skipping his Disadvantage) and there he will choose C2 because he has lower iniciative (10) than C1 (20).
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michele c
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Stavroguin wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
That's how I'd rule it, yes. Its main focus is C3, and it will move to get rid of Disadvantage from that. Its secondary focus is C1 since it's closer in proximity than C2. Moving to a will allow it to attack both.


I dont know why do you choose a secondary focus. In the rulebook i cant find it. I think each monster only has one focus. Maybe i am wrong.

I think M1 focus on C3, then move to "a" (skipping his Disadvantage) and there he will choose C2 because he has lower iniciative (10) than C1 (20).


"Proximity to the starting position" is a tie breaker before initiative.
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M.C.Crispy
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mhl7 wrote:
Stavroguin wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
That's how I'd rule it, yes. Its main focus is C3, and it will move to get rid of Disadvantage from that. Its secondary focus is C1 since it's closer in proximity than C2. Moving to a will allow it to attack both.


I dont know why do you choose a secondary focus. In the rulebook i cant find it. I think each monster only has one focus. Maybe i am wrong.

I think M1 focus on C3, then move to "a" (skipping his Disadvantage) and there he will choose C2 because he has lower iniciative (10) than C1 (20).


"Proximity to the starting position" is a tie breaker before initiative.
"proximity to the starting position" is an interesting way of expressing the fact that Focus is determined before the monster moves! I'm not sure whether it'll be useful, but I'll give it a go at the weekend as I have three scenarios planned with my party of 4.
 
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Gorka Muniozguren
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So, What about same case but with only range 2?

Move 1
Attack 1
Range 2
Target 2



 
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michael ray
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Stavroguin wrote:
So, What about same case but with only range 2?

Move 1
Attack 1
Range 2
Target 2





Would keep primary focus on C3, and after moving out of disadvantage would attack C2, because it's the only other character in range.
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M.C.Crispy
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Here's what FAQ says
Quote:
After determining focus, how exactly does a monster move to maximize its attack on it's focus and any additional targets?
It will determine where to move by prioritizing the following before moving:
1st - Attacking its primary focus, losing disadvantage if possible
2nd - Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority
3rd - Losing disadvantage on the extra targets (all equal priority, players decide ties)
Which gives the somewhat ridiculous-seeming situation where M1 moves to a and attacks C3 and nothing else! Hmmm... I wonder what nuance of Focus for Ranged Attack I'm missing?
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M.C.Crispy
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squegeeboo wrote:
Stavroguin wrote:
So, What about same case but with only range 2?

Move 1
Attack 1
Range 2
Target 2





Would keep primary focus on C3, and after moving out of disadvantage would attack C2, because it's the only other character in range.
Which makes sense, if only we didn't have the requirement that Focus and target prioritization is determined before moving. But there is a requirement to attack the maximum targets, prioritizing those targets from the starting position. I wonder what weasel words we need to add to describe the logical solution, which is to skip higher priority targets in favour of lower priority targets if the target hex renders the higher priority target out of Range/LoS?
 
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Per Erlandsson
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Stavroguin wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
That's how I'd rule it, yes. Its main focus is C3, and it will move to get rid of Disadvantage from that. Its secondary focus is C1 since it's closer in proximity than C2. Moving to a will allow it to attack both.


I dont know why do you choose a secondary focus. In the rulebook i cant find it. I think each monster only has one focus. Maybe i am wrong.

I think M1 focus on C3, then move to "a" (skipping his Disadvantage) and there he will choose C2 because he has lower iniciative (10) than C1 (20).

There was no 2nd focus in 1stEd but now in 2nd Edition there is. If a ranged Monster has found it's focus you note all the non-Disadvantage hexes you can attack from. Then you just iterate to find another focus from your starting position (treating previous focuses as obstacles), but now you only consider the hexes where you got non-Disadvantage attacks on all previous Focus targets as possible hexes to move to.


The main 2nd Edition differance is that Ranged Target 3 monsters sometimes will pick 2 non-Dis Attacks over 1 non-Dis, 1 Dis and 1 extra Attack. Which I find a bit silly because I don't think anyone has the brainspace to factor in disadvantage to the non primary target but instead would want to "hit them all"
 
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Fito R
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mccrispy wrote:
squegeeboo wrote:
Stavroguin wrote:
So, What about same case but with only range 2?

Move 1
Attack 1
Range 2
Target 2





Would keep primary focus on C3, and after moving out of disadvantage would attack C2, because it's the only other character in range.
Which makes sense, if only we didn't have the requirement that Focus and target prioritization is determined before moving. But there is a requirement to attack the maximum targets, prioritizing those targets from the starting position. I wonder what weasel words we need to add to describe the logical solution, which is to skip higher priority targets in favour of lower priority targets if the target hex renders the higher priority target out of Range/LoS?
First, a monster will prioritize losing disadvantage over maximizing targets. Then, it will maximize targets as available. From the rulebook,
Quote:
When forced to choose, a monster will prioritize losing Disadvantage on its
focused enemy over maximizing its attack on secondary targets.
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Flo
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mccrispy wrote:
Here's what FAQ says
Quote:
After determining focus, how exactly does a monster move to maximize its attack on it's focus and any additional targets?
It will determine where to move by prioritizing the following before moving:
1st - Attacking its primary focus, losing disadvantage if possible
2nd - Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority
3rd - Losing disadvantage on the extra targets (all equal priority, players decide ties)
Which gives the somewhat ridiculous-seeming situation where M1 moves to a and attacks C3 and nothing else! Hmmm... I wonder what nuance of Focus for Ranged Attack I'm missing?


The prioritisation is only taken into account if you actually have multiple options to choose from. I didn't even think that it could be interpreted in any other way.

In this case the monster can only move to a. From there it can only attack C2 apart from it's focus, so there are no tie breakers needed. I think you see the additional targets as focuses (secondary) and that's the problem. They are governed by different rules than the focus. The use of the word "focus" in point 2 might be misleading, but it's only there so that you know how to apply prioritisation if needed.
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M.C.Crispy
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florencka wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Here's what FAQ says
Quote:
After determining focus, how exactly does a monster move to maximize its attack on it's focus and any additional targets?
It will determine where to move by prioritizing the following before moving:
1st - Attacking its primary focus, losing disadvantage if possible
2nd - Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority
3rd - Losing disadvantage on the extra targets (all equal priority, players decide ties)
Which gives the somewhat ridiculous-seeming situation where M1 moves to a and attacks C3 and nothing else! Hmmm... I wonder what nuance of Focus for Ranged Attack I'm missing?


The prioritisation is only taken into account if you actually have multiple options to choose from. I didn't even think that it could be interpreted in any other way.

In this case the monster can only move to a. From there it can only attack C2 apart from it's focus, so there are no tie breakers needed. I think you see the additional targets as focuses (secondary) and that's the problem. They are governed by different rules than the focus. The use of the word "focus" in point 2 might be misleading, but it's only there so that you know how to apply prioritisation if needed.
I took as the basis of my assessment the phrase "Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority", in particular the highlighted phrase.

I don't disagree that I would play it as attacking C2 and C3 from a. I'm just trying to codify the logic that leads to that outcome, in a way that can be expressed in words so that one doesn't have to make an intuitive leap or somehow "bridge" the words and the intent. Currently, I don't have that.
 
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Fito R
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I really don't see where "intuitive leaps" are required. Looks fairly straightforward to me!
 
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M.C.Crispy
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Joou wrote:
I really don't see where "intuitive leaps" are required. Looks fairly straightforward to me!
Well I'm very pleased for you. You must feel very self-satisfied and smug. Myself, I'm still struggling per my comment. If it were 100% clear there would be no debate. Perhaps if you could recast the FAQ in a manner that eliminated my perceived ambiguity (and also that of the poster of the item, presumably), I would be very grateful. I might even provide bag for a satisfactory answer
 
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Byron S
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mccrispy wrote:
florencka wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Here's what FAQ says
Quote:
After determining focus, how exactly does a monster move to maximize its attack on it's focus and any additional targets?
It will determine where to move by prioritizing the following before moving:
1st - Attacking its primary focus, losing disadvantage if possible
2nd - Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority
3rd - Losing disadvantage on the extra targets (all equal priority, players decide ties)
Which gives the somewhat ridiculous-seeming situation where M1 moves to a and attacks C3 and nothing else! Hmmm... I wonder what nuance of Focus for Ranged Attack I'm missing?


The prioritisation is only taken into account if you actually have multiple options to choose from. I didn't even think that it could be interpreted in any other way.

In this case the monster can only move to a. From there it can only attack C2 apart from it's focus, so there are no tie breakers needed. I think you see the additional targets as focuses (secondary) and that's the problem. They are governed by different rules than the focus. The use of the word "focus" in point 2 might be misleading, but it's only there so that you know how to apply prioritisation if needed.
I took as the basis of my assessment the phrase "Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority", in particular the highlighted phrase.

I don't disagree that I would play it as attacking C2 and C3 from a. I'm just trying to codify the logic that leads to that outcome, in a way that can be expressed in words so that one doesn't have to make an intuitive leap or somehow "bridge" the words and the intent. Currently, I don't have that.

The first priority is to lose disadvantage. There's only one hex available with a Move 1 that satisfies this. From that target hex, it tries to add as many targets as possible. There's only one choice, so that's what it attacks. Target priority doesn't matter here at all since in each case, there's only one possible choice.
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Fito R
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What thatN guy said
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Flo
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runtsta wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
florencka wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Here's what FAQ says
Quote:
After determining focus, how exactly does a monster move to maximize its attack on it's focus and any additional targets?
It will determine where to move by prioritizing the following before moving:
1st - Attacking its primary focus, losing disadvantage if possible
2nd - Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority
3rd - Losing disadvantage on the extra targets (all equal priority, players decide ties)
Which gives the somewhat ridiculous-seeming situation where M1 moves to a and attacks C3 and nothing else! Hmmm... I wonder what nuance of Focus for Ranged Attack I'm missing?


The prioritisation is only taken into account if you actually have multiple options to choose from. I didn't even think that it could be interpreted in any other way.

In this case the monster can only move to a. From there it can only attack C2 apart from it's focus, so there are no tie breakers needed. I think you see the additional targets as focuses (secondary) and that's the problem. They are governed by different rules than the focus. The use of the word "focus" in point 2 might be misleading, but it's only there so that you know how to apply prioritisation if needed.
I took as the basis of my assessment the phrase "Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority", in particular the highlighted phrase.

I don't disagree that I would play it as attacking C2 and C3 from a. I'm just trying to codify the logic that leads to that outcome, in a way that can be expressed in words so that one doesn't have to make an intuitive leap or somehow "bridge" the words and the intent. Currently, I don't have that.

The first priority is to lose disadvantage. There's only one hex available with a Move 1 that satisfies this. From that target hex, it tries to add as many targets as possible. There's only one choice, so that's what it attacks. Target priority doesn't matter here at all since in each case, there's only one possible choice.


That's exactly what I said ninja
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Chris Willott
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Another way of saying the same thing:
The priority of secondary targets is only checked for those targets that could possibly be attacked while attacking the primary focus without disadvantage and while still attacking as many as possible.

Since C1 cannot possibly be attacked if disadvantage is avoided on C2, it is disregarded.
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Dan Baker
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mccrispy wrote:
florencka wrote:
mccrispy wrote:
Here's what FAQ says
Quote:
After determining focus, how exactly does a monster move to maximize its attack on it's focus and any additional targets?
It will determine where to move by prioritizing the following before moving:
1st - Attacking its primary focus, losing disadvantage if possible
2nd - Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority
3rd - Losing disadvantage on the extra targets (all equal priority, players decide ties)
Which gives the somewhat ridiculous-seeming situation where M1 moves to a and attacks C3 and nothing else! Hmmm... I wonder what nuance of Focus for Ranged Attack I'm missing?


The prioritisation is only taken into account if you actually have multiple options to choose from. I didn't even think that it could be interpreted in any other way.

In this case the monster can only move to a. From there it can only attack C2 apart from it's focus, so there are no tie breakers needed. I think you see the additional targets as focuses (secondary) and that's the problem. They are governed by different rules than the focus. The use of the word "focus" in point 2 might be misleading, but it's only there so that you know how to apply prioritisation if needed.
I took as the basis of my assessment the phrase "Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority", in particular the highlighted phrase.

I don't disagree that I would play it as attacking C2 and C3 from a. I'm just trying to codify the logic that leads to that outcome, in a way that can be expressed in words so that one doesn't have to make an intuitive leap or somehow "bridge" the words and the intent. Currently, I don't have that.


Prioritizing secondary targets comes after maximizing the number of such targets. If it had a way to attack C3 without disadvantage and C1, it would do so. (If it had Move 3 instead of Move 1, it would move to two hexes south of (b) to do so. Or if it could fly, it would hover over the obstacle to do so.) But it can’t, so the next best thing it can do is attack C3 without disadvantage and C2.

The approach I take to this for the monsters is as follows:

0) Determine priority for all possible targets this turn according to the focus rules.
1) Can I attack my focus this turn (without triggering more traps than would be needed if I had infinite movement)? If not, simply move as close as possible to a space where I could and stop. Otherwise, continue down the list.
2) Evaluate all of the places I can reach this turn from which I could attack my focus. If any of them would give me disadvantage, ignore those options unless all of them do.
3) If I have a multi-target attack, look at my remaining destination choices and see how many targets I can attack from there (up to the maximum number of targets my attack allows). Only choose from those spots where that number is the largest.
4) If there are multiple destinations with the same number of targets, pick only those that hit my second-priority target, if there are any (if I cannot hit that target while hitting my focus without unnecessary disadvantage, then skip that target). If still tied, pick only those that hit the third-priority target, if there are any, and so on down the line.
5) If there are multiple destinations with the same set of secondary targets, pick the one that minimizes the number of such targets attacked with disadvantage.
6) If there are still multiple options, pick the one that requires the least movement.
7) Move to that space and attack the highest-priority targets that are possible from that space.

In this example:
0) Priority is C3, C1, C2.
1) Yes, I can attack C3 this turn.
2) (a) is the only space I can move to this turn that allows me to attack C3 without disadvantage.
3-6) Not needed since there is only one viable destination after step 2.
7) Move to (a). First target (the focus) is C3. I’d like to attack C1 as well but I can’t from here. But I can attack C2, and do.
 
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M.C.Crispy
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I follow your workings, but your workings don't follow the requirement to determine priority from the starting position. I'm not saying that I understand that stricture, or agree with it, but that appears to be the rule. So how do we square that one away and still come up with the answer that we collectively believe is the right one?
 
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Philipp Schuster
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I'll give it a try ...

Quote:
Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority


Now, many threads about focusing tend to view the focus not so much as an enemy but as a square (hex, actually) from which an attack can be made. So the question is not really "what enemy to attack" but "to which hex to move in order to attack".

And maybe it could help to put the emphasis this way:

Quote:
Attacking as many extra targets as possible using the focus rules from its starting position to determine each target's priority

Combine those two, and we get to rewording an earlier contribution in this thread:

1st - Find a hex from where to attack the primary focus, losing disadvantage if possible
2nd - If there is more than one possibility, find a hex from where to target as many additional targets as possible (up to the number allowed by the ability card)
3rd - If there is still more than one possibility (ie you have a choice of secondary targets), use the normal focus rules from the monster's starting hex to decide which character will get that second attack.

(too tired right now to word this correctly in order to take into account possible disadvantage against the secondary focus vs. hitting a third target)

In the case currently discussed, you would not even get to point 2. And of course the monster would attack the second possible target from the hex it finishes its move in. It does not really matter if this second target influenced the decision where to move or not. If the monster happens to be able to attack, it does so.

EDIT: This can be refined of course, and I think it is absolutely worth the effort. I am sure that we will find the wording giving the answer that we collectively believe is the right one.
 
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Dan Baker
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mccrispy wrote:
I follow your workings, but your workings don't follow the requirement to determine priority from the starting position. I'm not saying that I understand that stricture, or agree with it, but that appears to be the rule. So how do we square that one away and still come up with the answer that we collectively believe is the right one?


Yes, they do. Determining priority is the very first thing you do. But attacking the maximum number of enemies is a higher priority than choosing which secondary targets (other than the focus) to attack. Choosing which secondary target to attack only matters if there is a choice, and here there is not because it cannot attack C1 at all this turn from a location from which it can attack C3 without disadvantage.

You seem to be reading the key line from the FAQ as “Choose the first N targets and attack as many of them as possible”. That’s not what it means. It means “Attack as many targets as possible, but if you have a choice of which targets to attack while doing so, pick based on focus rules”. (I think it would be clearer if split up into two lines, which is how I usually write it when explaining the finer points of the AI.)

Another way to look at it (which gives identical results) is:

0) Determine target priority using the focus rules.
1) List all sets of possible targets (up to the maximum allowed by the attack) that include the first priority (the focus) in order such that:
- Greater number of targets > lesser number of targets
- If number of targets is equal, higher-priority second target wins, then higher-priority third target, etc.
2) Starting at the highest-priority set, determine whether there is a hex reachable this turn from which that set of targets can be attacked and the focus can be attacked without disadvantage. Once such a hex is found for one set of targets, skip ahead to (A).
3) If no hex can be found where the focus can be attacked without disadvantage, repeat step (2) without that restriction.
4) If no hex reachable this turn can be found where the focus can be attacked at all, move as close as possible to a hex where the focus could be attacked, and the figure does not attack this turn.

A) Once a set of targets is found that can be attacked this turn, if there is a choice of multiple hexes from which to attack, choose the one that minimizes disadvantage against secondary targets (without gaining disadvantage against the focus unless the focus cannot be attacked at all without disadvantage this turn).
B) If there are multiple hexes with equally effective attacks against the same targets, choose the one that requires the least movement.
C) Move there and attack those targets.

In this case, the priorities would be (using /d to indicate disadvantage against that target):
C3 & C1
C3 & C1/d
C3 & C2
C3 & C2/d
C3
C3/d & C1
C3/d & C1/d
C3/d & C2
C3/d & C2/d
C3/d

The first two are impossible this turn with only Move 1 and no flying, so it chooses the third line (C3 & C2), which can only be done from one space reachable this turn.
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