Recommend
15 
 Thumb up
 Hide
72 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: Games that represent the cost of long supply lines rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Øivind Karlsrud
Norway
Bjørkelangen
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar: My two sons
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I was wondering what games have rules which make it more costly to supply your army when you're farther from your homeland. I remember we had this discussion when I played World in Flames, and we thought it was unrealistic that there was no extra cost to supply the German army when it was deep into the USSR. As long as your HQ's can trace a supply line home, you're in supply. Since then, I have played several other hex'n counter games, and know that the same kind of simple supply rule is common.

I could imagine something like the convoy system in WiF: You need a convoy in each sea zone you trace supply through. Let's say there was a kind of supply unit, and that supply could only be traced a certain amount of hexes from supply unit to supply unit. You would then have to build enough of those supply units (and maybe even pay some kind of upkeep), and you would need more supply units if you have long supply lines, just like you need more convoys if you trace supply through many sea zones.

Does any of you know of games which have done this sort of thing? I know OCS has detailed supply rules, but I'm not really looking for that, I'm just looking for a simple way of representing the cost of having long supply lines.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddy Sterckx
Belgium
Vilvoorde
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Russian Campaign handled this really well. Supply was basically railway supply. If you wanted to keep your supply lines open and free of partisans you needed to guard key intersections and stretches. This put a drain on units you could use at the front. The further you drove into Russia, the more units you needed to keep the front line ones supplied.

I thought this was a neat way to kill several birds with one stone.
24 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam Smith
United Kingdom
Newport Pagnell
Buckinghamshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Race to the Rhine, for which apparently a Russia 1941 follow up is planned, does exactly this. But I guess you are thinking heavier wargames than that.

The 'can you trace an EZOC-free LOS to a major road/railhead and then off the map' rule is common to many wargames, but I've always thought it doesn't manage to capture the finite nature of the supplies (eg especially fuel) which should sometimes make it hard to activate all your units all of the time. In wargames with minis it's been quite common for years to have rules that mean you don't necessarily get to activate all your troops each turn - though that's perhaps more to do with command focus and fog, it can also model supply at larger levels - eg No Retreat's limited supply of attack chits per turn. That could get messy for a game with a higher counter count, as you'd need a lot of chits, but you could limit it to armour and air, say. (Colour coded) map zones, with more supply points/attack chits needed the further east you go in Russia might also work, or just say 'East of x line' it's more expesnive.

Any that's all just conjecture, I too would be interested if anyone knows of any current games that have cracked it (other than Race to the Rhine).
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon M
United Kingdom
Hitchin
Herts
flag msg tools
Avatar
My prototype WWII game!

It has areas joined by approaches. Each approach has a number hard baked into it for each side. You spend a supply point and that is how many assets you can activate for combat (eg artillery, armour, TAC Air). You basically add the assets to the approaches. So as you get farther into the depths of Russia you get fewer and fewer assets for each attack as the numbers get smaller. You have to use the lowest number on the supply line and the number also restricts how many supply points you can expend over the approach.

So a supply point spent on the German border with France gets them 5 assets added to a combat. That same point spent in the Western Desert or Ufa by the Axis gets them 1 asset. This allows massive combats like the fall of France and Barbarossa without giving the Germans the ability to do this every turn.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mircea Pauca
Romania
Bucuresti
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Fire in the Sky: The Great Pacific War 1941-1945 shows the increasing difficulty of both Japan and Allies to operate the further they start from their bases. Just to be able to base ahead, they pay Transport points from a limited pool for each 4-hex hop. Then have a limited range to operate from. Japan has the added constraint of Oil points for ships to operate, it has to be brought using... Transport points.

In Rommel in the Desert the main supply cards constraint is not affected by range (it represents more a local and temporary focus of supply for an operation), but a secondary resource IS used more to bring reinforcements in several hops if their base is father away.

Ty Bomba had some WW2 designs where deeper in Russia there is a GAS Line (German Attenuated Supply) and anything becomes harder beyond.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edward Kendrick
United Kingdom
Redditch
Worcestershire
flag msg tools
I don't know whether you were restricting this to WWII games, but Empires in Arms has you building a chain of supply depots back to your homeland and then paying money for each unit (corps) drawing supply from a depot, with the cost increasing as the distance to the nearest depot increases (and doubling in winter). This works very well, and with the limited number of corps isn't too cumbersome. The total length of the supply line (eg from Paris to St Petersburg) doesn't affect the cost except in the effort initially to build and then to defend the longer line.
There are a limited number of depot units so you can't have as many lines as you want.

Or you can forage, of course ... robot
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
oivind22 wrote:
I could imagine something like the convoy system in WiF: You need a convoy in each sea zone you trace supply through. Let's say there was a kind of supply unit, and that supply could only be traced a certain amount of hexes from supply unit to supply unit. You would then have to build enough of those supply units (and maybe even pay some kind of upkeep), and you would need more supply units if you have long supply lines, just like you need more convoys if you trace supply through many sea zones.


Probably more abstract than you're wanting, but: I've played various wargames which don't have that sort of thing explicitly in supply rules, but they have VP cities which must be continually occupied to score. (I.e. not merely that you were the last player to move a unit into it, but the unit can then leave and you still retain "control".) So arguably that in effect indirectly captures that notion of having to dedicate some units to maintaining the supply lines, instead of moving all your units forward to front line combat...
9 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron Taylor
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
“... an iron curtain has descended across the Continent.” — Sir Winston Churchill (1946)
badge
So serious...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd warn OP that Boulding's loss of strength gradient theory is factually unsupported and is highly controversial, even though it makes intuitive sense
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Florida
flag msg tools
designer
"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This concept goes way back into the early days of the hobby.

The old SPI version of Drive on Stalingrad (first edition) (1970s) had truck counters representing supply chains that could be established by the Germans if they advanced deeper into the interior.

A classic WWIII game called Warsaw Pact (two versions, 1970s and 1980s) had superb logistics rules that strangled Soviet supply as they moved farther away from the Iron Curtain. A cunning Warsaw Pact commander would try to pin NATO units close to the border and grind them up while the Soviets were closer to their supply depots. Pushing a column ahead gobbles up supply points at a prodigious rate.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pokey 64
United States
Niagara Falls
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Afrika Korps and War and Peace

AK has actual supply counters you need to bring to the front and expend in order to attack. They can be captured or destroyed. The axis need to roll on a chart to see if they even receive supply on a turn. Don't know why this system wasn't used more often.

WaP uses a system in which you need to leave a unit along your axis of advance (every five move points?). As you get farther from home your army gets smaller and smaller...
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Øivind Karlsrud
Norway
Bjørkelangen
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar: My two sons
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SeriousCat wrote:
I'd warn OP that Boulding's loss of strength gradient theory is factually unsupported and is highly controversial, even though it makes intuitive sense

I didn't know it was controversial, but I suspected there were two sides to this story. A historian friend I used to play WiF with was of the firm opinion that Germany could never have won against USSR, because of supply, but I never read the book he wrote about it (I don't think it was published, either).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cameron Taylor
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
“... an iron curtain has descended across the Continent.” — Sir Winston Churchill (1946)
badge
So serious...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
oivind22 wrote:
I didn't know it was controversial, but I suspected there were two sides to this story. A historian friend I used to play WiF with was of the firm opinion that Germany could never have won against USSR, because of supply, but I never read the book he wrote about it (I don't think it was published, either).


I'm also of the opinion that your friend was probably right. It's more a case of how the theory is applied to expeditionary warfare. It's inherently logical and intuitive, but there's no facts supporting it, so it's accuracy is unknown at best.

There are some questions that need to be asked and were probably considered by your friend in his book: (1) How does the level of supply enhance or degrade combat power; (2) At what length of lines of communication, over what terrain, and with what level of transport capacity does the supply level degrade; (3) How much do supply levels degrade with each additoonal kilometre travelled; and finally (4) Was that point actually reached during Operation Barbarossa, Operation Typhoon, or Case Blue?

If you remember the book, I'd be interested to read it. Although I admit I have no facts or research to support my case, I too suspect Axis supply lines were stretched well past their sustainable limits at the outskirts of Moscow.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pelle Nilsson
Sweden
Linköping
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pete belli wrote:
This concept goes way back into the early days of the hobby.

The old SPI version of Drive on Stalingrad (first edition) (1970s) had truck counters representing supply chains that could be established by the Germans if they advanced deeper into the interior.

A classic WWIII game called Warsaw Pact (two versions, 1970s and 1980s) had superb logistics rules that strangled Soviet supply as they moved farther away from the Iron Curtain. A cunning Warsaw Pact commander would try to pin NATO units close to the border and grind them up while the Soviets were closer to their supply depots. Pushing a column ahead gobbles up supply points at a prodigious rate.


Early days of the hobby, indeed.

Krigs-spelet (1826) limits the number of brigades that can stack at the same location based on distance to their magazine (except for forts, unless the fort is completely cut off).

Even earlier in Het Stratégisch Spel (1819) there was a similar but slightly simpler rule, limiting the number of stacked units depending on how many of the player's two magazines were in a certain range.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Korchnoi
United States
Richmond
Virginia
flag msg tools
badge
My Little Man's first real wargame play: Barbarossa Solitaire
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In my recent plays of Stalin Moves West supply really got to be a pain. In the game, you only need to trace general supply for your units to attack but if you want to double or even triple their combat factors you need a supply unit. Now each unit only moves two hexes a turn and you cannot use railroad movement once you cross the border into territory to move them so they have to laboriously travel cross country. I thought it was a nice touch and I had trouble keeping my units in "attack condition" once the frontier had been crossed. Without that rule, either side could romp on the other, IMO.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Øivind Karlsrud
Norway
Bjørkelangen
Unspecified
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar: My two sons
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SeriousCat wrote:
If you remember the book, I'd be interested to read it. Although I admit I have no facts or research to support my case, I too suspect Axis supply lines were stretched well past their sustainable limits at the outskirts of Moscow.

I think it was something he just wrote for himself, with no plan to publish it. I think it was in norwegian too. But I sent him a message, so we'll see.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marty Sample
United States
MILFORD
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
[q="panzer6"]Afrika Korps and War and Peace

AK has actual supply counters you need to bring to the front and expend in order to attack. They can be captured or destroyed. The axis need to roll on a chart to see if they even receive supply on a turn. Don't know why this system wasn't used more often.

/q]

Because a lot of gamers hate moving supply points - a common criticism of OCS for instance.

Killing Ground has a rule where for every multiple of, I think, 36 road hexes from the Normandy beachheads, the Support capability of each corps HQ goes down by one level to reflect the increasing length of the supply chain.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Szarka
Canada
Waterloo
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
When it is your turn to send a VASSAL move, the wait is excruciating. When it's my turn, well, I've been busy.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pete belli wrote:
This concept goes way back into the early days of the hobby.

The old SPI version of Drive on Stalingrad (first edition) (1970s) had truck counters representing supply chains that could be established by the Germans if they advanced deeper into the interior.

A classic WWIII game called Warsaw Pact (two versions, 1970s and 1980s) had superb logistics rules that strangled Soviet supply as they moved farther away from the Iron Curtain. A cunning Warsaw Pact commander would try to pin NATO units close to the border and grind them up while the Soviets were closer to their supply depots. Pushing a column ahead gobbles up supply points at a prodigious rate.


Truck counters were also used in PanzerArmee Afrika to good effect.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John D.
United States
flag msg tools
Sola Fide.
badge
Remembering the men of the USS Frank E. Evans.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
eddy_sterckx wrote:
The Russian Campaign handled this really well. Supply was basically railway supply. If you wanted to keep your supply lines open and free of partisans you needed to guard key intersections and stretches. This put a drain on units you could use at the front. The further you drove into Russia, the more units you needed to keep the front line ones supplied.

I thought this was a neat way to kill several birds with one stone.


That's quite brilliant, and it makes me want this on my table. I'd love to see more of this kind of mechanic.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddy Sterckx
Belgium
Vilvoorde
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SpiderFighter wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
The Russian Campaign handled this really well. Supply was basically railway supply. If you wanted to keep your supply lines open and free of partisans you needed to guard key intersections and stretches. This put a drain on units you could use at the front. The further you drove into Russia, the more units you needed to keep the front line ones supplied.

I thought this was a neat way to kill several birds with one stone.


That's quite brilliant, and it makes me want this on my table. I'd love to see more of this kind of mechanic.


Just another example of how they achieved historical chrome with just a few little rules : the USSR player can use partisans to block railway lines/towns, needed by the Germans for supply purposes. Partisans could not be placed in the zoc of Axis units. Now here's the ingenious twist : for denying partisan placement the zoc of SS units extended one hex further. This made those units ideal for behind the lines anti-partisan duty, the exact role for which they were used historically, all without a long and cumbersome set of rules.

I really like it when a rule is simple, historical and not only makes sense, but also almost guides a player into using the proper strategy and tactics of the period.
19 
 Thumb up
0.35
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stuart
United States
Los Alamos
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
panzer6 wrote:
Afrika Korps and War and Peace

AK has actual supply counters you need to bring to the front and expend in order to attack. They can be captured or destroyed. The axis need to roll on a chart to see if they even receive supply on a turn. Don't know why this system wasn't used more often.

WaP uses a system in which you need to leave a unit along your axis of advance (every five move points?). As you get farther from home your army gets smaller and smaller...

I was going to say War and Peace, as well. Interestingly, the supply line -- which is formed by combat units -- requires the supply units to be more closely spaced in Russia and Spain than in the rest of Europe, simulating the greater difficulty in keeping an army supplied in these two countries.
6 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
marc lecours
Canada
ottawa
ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
eddy_sterckx wrote:
SpiderFighter wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
The Russian Campaign handled this really well. Supply was basically railway supply. If you wanted to keep your supply lines open and free of partisans you needed to guard key intersections and stretches. This put a drain on units you could use at the front. The further you drove into Russia, the more units you needed to keep the front line ones supplied.

I thought this was a neat way to kill several birds with one stone.


That's quite brilliant, and it makes me want this on my table. I'd love to see more of this kind of mechanic.


Just another example of how they achieved historical chrome with just a few little rules : the USSR player can use partisans to block railway lines/towns, needed by the Germans for supply purposes. Partisans could not be placed in the zoc of Axis units. Now here's the ingenious twist : for denying partisan placement the zoc of SS units extended one hex further. This made those units ideal for behind the lines anti-partisan duty, the exact role for which they were used historically, all without a long and cumbersome set of rules.

I really like it when a rule is simple, historical and not only makes sense, but also almost guides a player into using the proper strategy and tactics of the period.


Yeah this is what I refer to as "elegance" in rule design. A simple rule that simulates a complex situation. Especially if the rule simulates 2 or 3 things at once.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Freddy Dekker
Netherlands
Friesland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bob_santafe wrote:
I was going to say War and Peace, as well.


Me too, great minds, and me seem to think alike at times.

whistle
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John D.
United States
flag msg tools
Sola Fide.
badge
Remembering the men of the USS Frank E. Evans.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
eddy_sterckx wrote:
Just another example of how they achieved historical chrome with just a few little rules :

[much goodness snipped]

I really like it when a rule is simple, historical and not only makes sense, but also almost guides a player into using the proper strategy and tactics of the period.


You've hit it right on the head for me: elegant, logical gameplay wins every time over complexity just for complexity's sake. I've read so much about TRC over the years, but I've never been interested. Now I'm kicking myself for not already owning a copy. Thanks for taking the time to share all of this. I'll have to scrape some cash together soon!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wendell
United States
Yellow Springs
Ohio
flag msg tools
Si non potes reperire Berolini in tabula, ludens essetis non WIF.
badge
Hey, get your stinking cursor off my face! I got nukes, you know.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Korean War handles that brilliantly - the longer the supply lines, the weaker the unit gets. AND it manages the supply rules in a pretty simple way that doesn't slow down the actual maneuver and combat that we all enjoy in wargames. I'm slightly bamboozled that more designers haven't borrowed or adopted Balkoski's ideas on this.
21 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacob Ossar
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's highly abstract, but I'd argue that "support" maps pretty closely onto supply in Diplomacy. If your units stray from friendly or allied support, they are doomed.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.