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Subject: Cragheart - has bottom part of Rock Slide had an official answer? rss

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Gutripper
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So the bottom part of Cragheart level 4 card Rock Slide is a



Spoiler (click to reveal)
Move 6 - movement has to be in a straight line


Slightly spoiler if you don’t want to know what the card might do

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I’ve seen a few threads but none that give a definite answer and it’s not in the FAQ

Does the hex direction matter (ie they need to be lined up perfectly) or is is it simply if you can draw a straight line from start to end of movement and you are able to take the shortest route as the crow flies to get there then it’s valid?

The latter is slightly more useful and makes sense to me, as it still stops you from going around corners as well as obstacles and enemies that are in the way.

Anyone seen an official answer to this question that they can point at?
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Simon Skov
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This doesn't need an official answer. The hexes must be 'lined up perfectly' as you put it, i.e. in a straight line.
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Gutripper
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That's not what the card says Simon, the card says the movement must be in a straight line.

LoS is a straight line even if it goes zigzag through hexes that are not lined up perfectly. If one can similarly draw a straight line from where I start to my destination with moving through walls, enemies or obstacles then I would argue the rule is being followed the way Isaac mentioned in a post I saw. Is the character moving along a straight line in all the below examples (green are OK, red are not) - I would say yes and so are others... Others are saying no. So it's ambiguous and I can see it's ambiguous so there is no clear right or wrong unless there's an official answer.


It's not as if a party member is jumping side to side when he's moving in a straight line along hexes that aren't aligned perfectly.

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Jay Johnson
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I'd consider this an official answer this an official answer

Cephalofair wrote:
You can't move in sort of a straight line. It has to be an actual straight line.
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Fito R
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Gutripper wrote:

It's not as if a party member is jumping side to side when he's moving in a straight line along hexes that aren't aligned perfectly.

The second line, starting from the left, isn't "in a straight line".

If the word "line" is confusing you, then think of it like this. Look at all the hexes your movement encompasses. Are they straight? Then it's a straight line.
 
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Chris Ferejohn
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I'm with Simon. I don't consider this wording to be ambiguous. A straight line means a straight line of hexes. If you want to rule it some other way, your game, but I'd be surprised if anyone else interprets it that way.
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Victor Ferreira
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Joou wrote:
Gutripper wrote:
The second line, starting from the left, isn't "in a straight line".

Wtf are you talking about? It's obviously a straight line.
"A straight line" =/= "A straight line of hexes"
The hexes don't have to be in a straight line for the line to be straight, and nothing indicates that they do. The line-of-sight rules make this pretty clear. Lines go through hexes, but they are not composed of them. You can move in a line even if the hexes you move through aren't in a line, just like you have line-of-sight to hexes that there's no perfect line of hexes to.
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Victor Ferreira
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JayJ79 wrote:
I'd consider this an official answer this an official answer
Cephalofair wrote:
You can't move in sort of a straight line. It has to be an actual straight line.

Honestly, the over-simplicity of the answer makes it sound like he didn't understand what was being asked. Idk about the OP, but I'm gonna need better than that to accept a ruling so markedly absurd.
 
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Fito R
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Twilight_Sonata wrote:
Joou wrote:
Gutripper wrote:
The second line, starting from the left, isn't "in a straight line".

Wtf are you talking about? It's obviously a straight line.
"A straight line" =/= "A straight line of hexes"
The hexes don't have to be in a straight line for the line to be straight, and nothing indicates that they do. The line-of-sight rules make this pretty clear. Lines go through hexes, but they are not composed of them.

Well, the movement is actually like this


Does that look straight to you?

If you draw a line from the start hex to the destination hex, almost ANY movement is "in a straight line". It's pretty clear to me that, since this game works on hexes, movement is also thought in hexes. A line of hexes is very simple to understand.
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Throknor
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A straight line can be drawn between any two points by definition. It doesn't say "unobstructed". There is little reason to use the word "straight" unless it was intended to mean "without turning".

A better question is whether you can move less than six but I'm pretty sure that is in the book as yes already.
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Victor Ferreira
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Joou wrote:
Twilight_Sonata wrote:
Joou wrote:
Gutripper wrote:
The second line, starting from the left, isn't "in a straight line".

Wtf are you talking about? It's obviously a straight line.
"A straight line" =/= "A straight line of hexes"
The hexes don't have to be in a straight line for the line to be straight, and nothing indicates that they do. The line-of-sight rules make this pretty clear. Lines go through hexes, but they are not composed of them.

Well, the movement is actually like this

Ok, then you don't have line of sight to that hex ever either. That's basically what you're saying.

Quote:
If you draw a line from the start hex to the destination hex, almost ANY movement is "in a straight line".

Maybe if there were no obstacles or enemies or walls. It's hard enough moving in a straight line without the additional ridiculousness of it also having to be a cardinal line of hexes.
Not only that, but it's entirely thematically nonsensical, seeing as hexes are abstractions.
 
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Fito R
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No, because line of sight rules are different. They are very specifically worded. Line of sight specifically says that you have to draw a line from one corner of the hex to another. You are intentionally misrepresenting the rules to fit your view of what the rules should be, instead of what the rules actually say.

Also, "thematic sense" is a phrase that does not belong in discussions about Gloomhaven's rules. Everything is an abstraction. Every single thing. You are correct, however, that it is incredibly limiting to have to move in a line of hexes, which is why these type of abilities are very bad.
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Victor Ferreira
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Joou wrote:
No, because line of sight rules are different.

Says who? Not even talking about the game's rules, a line is a line. A line can go through a grid of hexagons in any direction or orientation, not just six. The game already aknowledge this obviously with its line-of-sight rules, and there's no reason to think the rest of the game wouldn't aknowledge it just the same. I'm not twisting or misrepresenting anything. The game just doesn't say what you think it says. It doesn't redefine lines anywhere, so we can and should assume they work the same as they do elsewhere.

Quote:
Also, "thematic sense" is a phrase that does not belong in discussions about Gloomhaven's rules.

Of course it does. It helps us determine the quality of those rules. If the rule is really as you say (which I'm not even nearly convinced that it is), then it's a bad and ridiculous rule, and we're going to continue ignoring it.

Quote:
You are correct, however, that it is incredibly limiting to have to move in a line of hexes, which is why these type of abilities are very bad.

Surprise! It turns out they're actually not very bad at all if your interpretion of the rules isn't totally absurd. If you interpret them sensically, those abilities turn out to be perfectly reasonable. That those abilities are plainly awful under your interpretation but balanced just fine under mine is just more evidence of their intention.
 
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Fito R
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You remind me of the guy who was convinced his interpretation of how monsters consumed elements was correct. Though at least you're not thumbs-up'ing your own posts!

Let's break it down.

Quote:
Says who?

Says the rulebook. And I quote

All ranged and melee attacks can only be performed against enemies within
line-of-sight, which means that a line can be drawn from any corner of the attacker’s hex to any
corner of the defender’s hex
without touching any part of a wall

Note that there are no mentions of "straight lines", or movement, or anything of the sort. It's a line from one corner of the hex to another.

Movement rules say the following

A “Move X” ability allows a character to move up to X number of hexes on the map.

So movement is along hexes. Then a straight line would be a line of hexes.

Quote:
It helps us determine the quality of those rules.
Are thematic rules the only ones that are considered good? What? Are you seriously saying that only thematic rules are considered good? That "themeness" is a measure of quality? Every game has rules born out of "game" needs, not thematic ones. Are they all bad and stupid? No. Gloomhaven in particular is a game focused on mechanical and positional combat. Just about every single rule is in service to this, not theme.

While this seems clear to me, and others, if Isaac ever chimes in with his ruling, I'll be sure to drop you a line to let you know.
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Victor Ferreira
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Joou wrote:
Quote:
Says who?

Says the rulebook. And I quote

Your quotes don't support your assertions. Nowhere in the rules for movement does the game say that lines stop being lines just because the grid is in hexagons.

Quote:
Are thematic rules the only ones that are considered good?

There's a difference between rules that are a necessary result of abstraction to understandable game terms and rules that are both unnecessary and aggressively anti-thematic. A rule that movement in a line needs to be as you interpret is totally unnecessary, because it's perfectly simple to understand and implement normal line movement across hexes in this game, evidenced by the fact that they already do for line-of-sight.
Beyond that, if you're really dead-set on downplaying the immense importance of theme to Gloomhaven's appeal, success, and, yes, it's rules, then idk what to tell you.

Furthermore, folks on this board need to stop name-dropping Isaac every two seconds. If he does chime in with a ruling and it's a stupid one, I have zero qualms about ignoring it.
 
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Jay Johnson
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Twilight_Sonata wrote:
JayJ79 wrote:
I'd consider this an official answer this an official answer
Cephalofair wrote:
You can't move in sort of a straight line. It has to be an actual straight line.

Honestly, the over-simplicity of the answer makes it sound like he didn't understand what was being asked. Idk about the OP, but I'm gonna need better than that to accept a ruling so markedly absurd.

You do realize that the person I quoted was the person who designed the game, right?
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badalchemist
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You can obviously draw a straight line between any two points. By that argument, every total move is in a straight line. The fact that the card draws this distinction implies that there is some additional criteria to satisfy, i.e. a line of movement that is continuously in one straight line. This is opposed to other movements that are in more of a zig zag. You wouldn't argue that the Knight in Chess moves in a "straight line" simply because you can draw a line from the starting position to the ending position.
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Victor Ferreira
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JayJ79 wrote:
Twilight_Sonata wrote:
JayJ79 wrote:
I'd consider this an official answer this an official answer
Cephalofair wrote:
You can't move in sort of a straight line. It has to be an actual straight line.

Honestly, the over-simplicity of the answer makes it sound like he didn't understand what was being asked. Idk about the OP, but I'm gonna need better than that to accept a ruling so markedly absurd.

You do realize that the person I quoted was the person who designed the game, right?

Yes, I am very aware.
 
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I think the keyword that you are skipping over is movement has to be in a straight line. There is only a very specific way that can happen. It's not Los, it's not drawing a line, the way your guy moves has to be straight.
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Fito R
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ribsies wrote:
I think the keyword that you are skipping over is movement has to be in a straight line. There is only a very specific way that can happen. It's not Los, it's not drawing a line, the way your guy moves has to be straight.
We have already determined that that answer is not thematic, and therefore invalid
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Jussi-Pekka Jokinen
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I don't think this is the least bit ambiguous. The movement needs to be in a straight line of hexes. If you'd go with the "Yeah, but technically I can draw a straight line" approach, you'd be able to dodge obstacles, and that'd go heavily against the spirit of the card. It's one of the biggest moves the Cragheart has, so naturally it also has one of the biggest limitations.

EDIT:

Twilight_Sonata wrote:
Furthermore, folks on this board need to stop name-dropping Isaac every two seconds. If he does chime in with a ruling and it's a stupid one, I have zero qualms about ignoring it.


So you're saying it's completely fine to ignore you as well?
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Jay Johnson
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The original post asked if there was an official answer regarding this card. The designer has addressed it in another thread, and that is about as official as it gets (short of it being printed in the rulebook).

If you don't like it, fine, play your own variant (as long as the other people in your game group are fine with it).
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Gutripper
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JayJ79 wrote:
The original post asked if there was an official answer regarding this card. The designer has addressed it in another thread, and that is about as official as it gets (short of it being printed in the rulebook).

If you don't like it, fine, play your own variant (as long as the other people in your game group are fine with it).


The designer’s answer in the thread mentioned is exactly where my question arose from because it was not clear to me (and others from what I can hear) what the correct interpretation of what constitutes a straight line of movement.

An official answer that stated whether the middle green line in the example I made would go all the way in clarifying that.

I am convinced by both sides of the arguments put here and hence still torn by the lack of clarity of how this rule was intended. There are good points being made on both sides
 
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Darren Nakamura
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What I want to know about this is, can I move 4 hexes in a straight line, and then 2 hexes back in the direction I came from? (Useful for opening doors)
 
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Gutripper
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Dexter345 wrote:
What I want to know about this is, can I move 4 hexes in a straight line, and then 2 hexes back in the direction I came from? (Useful for opening doors)


No is the short answer - Isaac has previously written, for that exact question, that you can not change direction, which that would be doing.
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