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Subject: Things that scale oddly in mage knight rss

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Andre Oliveira
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I've separeted a few issue I feel that scale oddly between solo - multiplayer. Feel free to comment on nay of them or even add additional things.

Round Length (competitive x solo/coop)

Quote:
The dummy player places a random turn limit. Which is mostly problematic for Long Night. But it is mostly useful to prevent mine cheesing. In an ideal world, you could use 2 dummies to average out those unlucky streaks.


Skills, Advanced action and Spell Offer (solo x multiplayer)

Quote:
The dummy make Advanced action and Spell Offer quite stagnant while proving little in the common skill offer.


Constant Mana re-rolling (solo x multiplayer)

Quote:
This one is a big issue - other players can really mess up with mana dice (and less than often, help you). In turn this also increases downtime (because no plan lasts the reroll of mana die). All in all I really dislike mana dice system (and it gets exacerbated in multiplayer).


Easy XP (monster scarcity in the first few turns)

Quote:
While the rampaging monsters variant might help on catching up to players ahead, easy orcs (those that die to a single mana boosted / concentration swiftness) tend to get killed quite fast, as does foes close to the entrance.


Does anything else bother you? please comment.
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Quantum Jack
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Making up for the "easy monster xp" us that those physically further ahead are also most likely to spend movement exploring.

All in all, i'm not bothered by any of these things, but it is just good to take note and plan accordingly.
 
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Gabriel Honore
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desocupado wrote:
I've separeted a few issue I feel that scale oddly between solo - multiplayer. Feel free to comment on nay of them or even add additional things.

Round Length (competitive x solo/coop)

Quote:
The dummy player places a random turn limit. Which is mostly problematic for Long Night. But it is mostly useful to prevent mine cheesing. In an ideal world, you could use 2 dummies to average out those unlucky streaks.

I fail to see the why it is problematic with long night. Maybe you are playing too slow ?
Much more than "mine cheesing", the dummy prevents you to make the most of every card. It sets tempo, forcing you to play cards unpowered and sideways.
Else the game would be too easy.

Quote:
Skills, Advanced action and Spell Offer (solo x multiplayer)

Quote:
The dummy make Advanced action and Spell Offer quite stagnant while proving little in the common skill offer.

You might be interested in the "control over the offer variant", recommended in the Lost legion Rulebook for all solo players.
Before refreshing the offer, you may decide to replace 2 AAs and/or 2 spells from the offer. Only the first one goes to the dummy though.

Quote:
Constant Mana re-rolling (solo x multiplayer)

Quote:
This one is a big issue - other players can really mess up with mana dice (and less than often, help you). In turn this also increases downtime (because no plan lasts the reroll of mana die). All in all I really dislike mana dice system (and it gets exacerbated in multiplayer).

I have to agree that having the complete source is often required to efficiently plan one's turn. I tried to put up a variant for this - but thus haven't come to anything good.
Of course players will mess up with the source when playing competitive. This is done on purpose, and part of the game balance.

Quote:

Easy XP (monster scarcity in the first few turns)

Quote:
While the rampaging monsters variant might help on catching up to players ahead, easy orcs (those that die to a single mana boosted / concentration swiftness) tend to get killed quite fast, as does foes close to the entrance.

I don't have this much competitive experience to really comment this.

Quote:
Does anything else bother you? please comment.

The main thing that bothers me is that I can't get my girlfriend to like this game...
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Andre Oliveira
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I was thinking about having 2 dummies - to control those unlucky streaks. (or limiting their crystals to 3 - i.e. if they would get a 4th, they get another color) - a flat turn limit could work too.

About the mana die - I've been thinking about putting a set amount of mana crystals instead of dies in the mana pool, based on the number of players. Maybe 4,5,6 at day 1/2/3 (plus gold/black accordingly to some criteria) This would make higher initiative even better.
 
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King Maple
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I do t see scaling issues in any of this. The more players you have, the more likely it actually is that a round is quick and mana changes.

The dynamics change, but it doesn't cause any scaling issues, from difficulty to elsewhere.

I am thinking about playing with 5!
 
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Ben Kyo
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Round length is not a problem.

As mentioned above, the manipulating the offer variant might appeal to you.

Mana rerolling is a thing, but you just have to come up with two or more plans before you turn instead of one.

The "easy XP" problem can sometimes be mitigated by PvP. The players who grab the early orcs have to manage to do so without leaving themselves open to a Tactic 5 or 6 player pouncing on them, which can be tricky.
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Day Life
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desocupado wrote:
Round Length (competitive x solo/coop)

Quote:
The dummy player places a random turn limit. Which is mostly problematic for Long Night. But it is mostly useful to prevent mine cheesing. In an ideal world, you could use 2 dummies to average out those unlucky streaks.


I can not even understand how this is an issue. The dummy player is so slow that it is practically trivial. The dummy actys as a gentle reminder to get on with it. If you are playing even remotely competent you will not run the dummy deck out in a round.

There is also an alternative dummy system introduced in the Legion expansion you could try as well that is very different.

desocupado wrote:
Skills, Advanced action and Spell Offer (solo x multiplayer)

Quote:
The dummy make Advanced action and Spell Offer quite stagnant while proving little in the common skill offer.


Again, this is really not much of an issue, as it makes the game arguably easier than multiplayer. Though for solo you might need to focus on more aggressive tactics to move the offer if you are trying to get specific cards.

There is a common house rule to discard two cards instead of one during the round reset. So one to the dummy and one to the discard pile. Some people even use it 2 player games. I recommend against this.

desocupado wrote:
Constant Mana re-rolling (solo x multiplayer)

Quote:
This one is a big issue - other players can really mess up with mana dice (and less than often, help you). In turn this also increases downtime (because no plan lasts the reroll of mana die). All in all I really dislike mana dice system (and it gets exacerbated in multiplayer).


This is by far the best thing about playing competitive Mage Knight and also what makes it the best variant of the game. Source disruption and management is where this game moves into deep meta tactics. Your goal is to not need the source. Crystals and Mana Gen is what you should be looking at.

Again, there is a common variant (it may even be in the rulebook, I forget) called "Friendly Mana". It states that you may not use a gold mana if there is a mana of that colour. So say you want to pump a green spell, and there is a green and a gold during the day, you need to take the green. You can not burn the gold just for the sake of it.

There is also a very common variant that changes how the MANA card at night works. Instead of rolling up to two source die, at the start of your turn. You can choose to roll up to 2 AFTER you take 1 die. If you use no die you can not roll any mana die with the card. This is particularly good variant for solo play. It also helps in competitive as it makes the card more likely to be chosen as you can control it better.

desocupado wrote:
Easy XP (monster scarcity in the first few turns)

Quote:
While the rampaging monsters variant might help on catching up to players ahead, easy orcs (those that die to a single mana boosted / concentration swiftness) tend to get killed quite fast, as does foes close to the entrance.


Noobs tend to worry to much about taking damage. If you are not taking dungeons in the 1st few turns and taking out keeps / castles then you are doping it wrong. There is plenty of XP on the board. I just feel this is a non-issue that you are feeling as you do not really know how to play.

Also remember that sucking up tokens will leave you open to being attacked by other players.. which can be a real pain in the early game for those greedy token grabbers! If you are playing co-op remember it is just that. Early powerful peeps can go into sites and clear a token, leaving only easy ones for their mates to come in and grab the bonus and stuff. If you split your "tasks" of how the mage knight works when you battle the large cities you can get away with vastly different XP counts and still be very effective in co-op.

The XP gain is so easy that, again, there is a popular (in the rule book) variant you might want to try that retards the leaders XP gain and helps the people in the back. If there is a fault in this game it is that the leader can get away form the other players. I forget what the variant is called but it works well.

I think the slow down and 2 card discard form the offer variants are part of the Legion Expansion.
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Magnesi
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DayinDaLife wrote:
This is by far the best thing about playing competitive Mage Knight and also what makes it the best variant of the game. Source disruption and management is where this game moves into deep meta tactics.
I completely agree. In multiplayer, the game is a competition for the best resources:

- best AA in the offer. No doubt that magic talent or blood rage is better than in need or ice shield. So, if the offer has an AA that is much better than the others, it creates a race for the next level up. The same can happen with spells.

- best sites in the map: mage towers and monasteries are better targets than orcs and keeps. Dungeon's reward is way better than the dens' one. You can rush for the good site even if you aren't completely prepared, or wait another turn and risk that the site is taken. Risk evaluation is a bigger factor than at solo/coop.

-And... there is also a competition for the source. Maybe I don't need that red die, but if I don't take it, you'll cast Mana Meltdown.

I don't see a problem here. I mean, in my (completely subjective) opinion, the decision problems about the source in competitive games are more interesting and rich than in solo.

I'd agree that the source system increases the downtime. But so does combat rewards, level ups, etc. I won't start my turn before knowing which crystals gained my opponent in that den, which is the new spell in the offer, the skill he gained or whatever.
At solo, the new source will also affect the next turn plan, so it's the same, right?
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Andre Oliveira
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Benkyo wrote:
Mana rerolling is a thing, but you just have to come up with two or more plans before you turn instead of one.


This gave me an idea - each player has 2 individual mana die and another die stays at the middle.
 
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Gabriel Honore
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desocupado wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Mana rerolling is a thing, but you just have to come up with two or more plans before you turn instead of one.


This gave me an idea - each player has 2 individual mana die and another die stays at the middle.

Sometimes the source is favorable to a player, and not to another.
But most of the time, if it's good to a player it may be good to all. And reversely.

I'm afraid with this variant, players with unfavourable rolls will have a clear disadvantage.
 
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RyuSora
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I have no issue with any of those points. Lost legion introduces a variant to manipulate the spell and AA offer.

But feel free to houserule anything in the game, make the game more fun TO YOU!
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