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Subject: The Axis goes east....again rss

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juerg haeberli
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Players: Han as the West. Nic as the Axis. Me as the Soviets.

Meta game:

In our group we do diplomacy and keep negogiated contracts to the letter.
Normally there is a peace contract between the Axis and the West in effect.

Yesterday it looked like this:

Peace between Axis and West until at least 1939. ( 1939 included )
Beginning with 39 the contract for the next year is renegotiated.
Western diplomatic nonintervention in the Balkans.( exept Gre )
No Axis fleet units in or moving through sea areas outside the Med.

From the Russian point of view this contract was one year to long,

1936

1. West : 0cd 0cv 0ac 7inv Inf: 2 Swe, 1 Por,Gre 2 ind.

2. Sovjets: 0cd 3cv 0ac 6inv Inf: 1 Spain, L.A. 1 ind.

3. Axis : 0cd 0cv 11ac 0inv Inf: 3 Pol, Rom, Yug, L.C., 2 Tur,
1 Fin, Bul

The West industrializes as fast as possible.
The Sovjets play Standard opening with below average sucess. ( only 1 ind.)
The Axis goes all or nothing with 11 ac.
This is an interesting Axis opening which can be very rewarding or depressing depending how the cards fall.
This time the Axis was very lucky and this could have been a short game if the West hadent canceled the 3rd Axis influence in Turkey.

Sping 36

All quiet befre the storm.

Summer 36

Axis and Sovjets play a card. Axis goes first.

Axis DoW's Soviets and attacks Odessa and Kiew in the South.
Both Sovjet tank pickets retreat to form a closed front line.
The Sovjets bring reinforcements to hold the river line in the South.

And that was how far the Axis got in the East.

For the rest I give a shortened version.

1937

Production : West 9 Axis 12 Sovjets 10

Politics : Nothing

Nothing hapens


1938

Production : West 11 Axis 13 Sovjets 10

Politics : Sovjets loose L.A.

Sovjets take Fin.


1939

Production : West 12 Axis 14 Sovjets 9

Politics : West: Sat: Swe

West takes Nor.
Axis takes Bul and Den.
Sovjets take Persia and Baltic states.

Sovjets offer Axis cease fire if they give back Odessa and Kiew.

Axis negotiates another year of peace with West.


1940

Production: West 13 Axis 16 Sovjets 11

Politics : West 2 infl. CZ Axis: 1 inf. L.A.

Axis takes Hun.

Axis negotiates another year of peace with West.


1941

Production: West 15 Axis 17 Sovjets 11

Politics : West: Sat: CZ Axis: Sat: L.A.

Axis takes Austria

Axis negotiates another year of peace with the West.


1942

Production: West 17 Axis 18 Sovjets 13

Politics : West: Sat: Gre

West takes Spain

Finally the Axis sees the light or the writing on the wall.

Axis and Sovjets agree to cease fire.
Axis gives back Odessa and Kiew and abstains from military intervention in Turky.

West has 24 Points.

1943

Production: West 19 Axis 19 Sovjets 13

Axis finally DoW's West

Politics : West 1 infl. USA

Axis takes Malta and Marseille.

Sovjets take Turky.


1944

Production: West 16 Axis 17 Sovjets 15

Politics : US finally joins West. ( Too late for any units though )

West takes back Marseille.

Sovjets prepare for attacks towards Scandinavia and India.


1945

Production: West 17 Axis 17 Sovjet 15

Politics : Sovjets DoW West

Note: West and Sovjets bought 5 and 3 Action Cards both in hope to find a fall Card. None was found. Sigh

Axis takes Marseille back and the two resources in France and Sovjets take Norway and almost Sweden.

End total

West: Production 16 Peace dividends 4 Atomic 1 : 21

Axis: Production 19 Peace dividends 1 2 DoW's -2 : 18

Sovj: Production 15 Peace dividends 1 Atomic 1 DoW -1 : 16

When the Axis DoW'ed Russia in 36 ( he probabely remembered his last crushing victory over Russia the last time we had similar political conditions. ) it was pretty clear that the West was in an excellent position to win.

I personally am pretty happy to see that it is possible to stop and early Axis attack East cold in it's tracks without military help from the West with the right set up and good defensive play.
Unfortunately even if you do that you are very far away from winning the game.

Of course the Axis and Sovjets were siting on all the US Cards they could get in their hands.

When exactely the Axis shoulf have DoW'ed the West seems difficult to say. It had so many neutrals to take in the Balkans to catch up.....

If I had drawn a fall Card in 45 I could have tried for India but without it I tried for Scandinavia.

All in all an intresting game which confirmed my thoughts about correct Sovjet set up and defense.



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Borat Sagdiyev
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No surprise the West won if the Axis did not put any pressure at all on the Allies in the early game.

Why on earth would the Axis ever negotiate a treaty with the West if the West has no power at all to attack the Axis until at least 1940-41 and the only path to West victory is attacking the Axis sooner or later?
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juerg haeberli
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Well.....it might not be as clear as it looks on first sight.
The West had no US units and didnt look that great when the Axis finally attacked it.
One of the reasons I didnt attack the West in 44 was the fear of a clear Axis victory.

But of course an Axis attack on Russia in 36 makes the West the front runner.

Well should you ever be the Axis with me as the West and a competent Player as the Russian I would try to negotiate a peace treaty till 38 with you.

If you dont agree it depends who of us goes first.

If I go first I will build 7 unit steps and DoW you in Fall 36 at the latest if you build too.

This should be a strong incentive for you to negotiate.

Best regards.

Jürg
 
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Borat Sagdiyev
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haeberich wrote:
If I go first I will build 7 unit steps and DoW you in Fall 36 at the latest if you build too.

This should be a strong incentive for you to negotiate.


Don't really see why. Such an strategy would only damage the longterm prospects of a West victory.

OTOH, it would only push the Axis player to be even more aggressive in the East and, after conquering Leningrad or Moscow, execute the coup de grâce to the game in Paris.
 
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juerg haeberli
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Hmmm....it seems an early western DoW against Axis seems to damage longterm victory prospects of West and Axis.
Thus if the Axis answer to this is hyper agressive play against East that sounds good from western point of view.

If the Axis should take Leningrad or Moscow ( not that easy against competent play ) you would have to defend France for a change.
 
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John Benn
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There's not many absolutes in this game.

Not many tables have "mandatory" standard peace treaties, as they aren't needed.
 
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Brett Johnson
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We don't negotiate any early peace treaties...

Nor would I be willing to do agree to a long multi-year treaty with no escape clause, because of the potential scenarios as described by the original poster.

A multi-year peace agreement turns the game into either 2 vs. 1 OR 1 strong vs. 1 weak while in force.

An early DOW closes out a lot of options in the game.
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And neither Hitler nor Stalin would have dreamed of violating the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, right?

It would be interesting to try out a house rule that stipulates a World Reaction of 1 Action card for unilaterally breaking a negotiated treaty.

Just a thought.

Dieter
 
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juerg haeberli
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Please note that the West has to react to a strong early military building programm of the Axis or worse a possible early Axis buiding programm.

If I as the West have to build units instead of industry I am falling farther back behind Axis production.

Unfortunately if Poland has not joined the Axis diplomatically the greedy Axis eyes will most often first look at western territories.

What to do know ?

As soon as Axis ships sortie into Atlantic and/or Pazifik you will have to DoW Axis anyway to stop blockade.

To me me it looks very apealing to put Axis under pressure as early as possible and force it to go east sooner or later because of the Russians threatening to win.

From a strictly western survival point of view this seems one of the most promising options which could lead to diplomacy if your metagame has the right players.

As several studies in the human and animal world have shown working together and being reliable can be a very big asset.


If players show themselves as unrelyable treaty partners other players will not make treaties with them any more which in a 3 player game can be a severe disadvantage depending on player personalities involved.

Fazit:
Even in a non diplomatical environment it could be a good idea for the West to DoW the Axis early if the West is fighting for survival.
 
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Borat Sagdiyev
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The more you try to rationalize it, the more clear is to me there's nothing to win for the Axis in an early peace treaty with the West. cool
 
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An early DOW against the Axis enhances their industrialization.

Also, whether treaties are beneficial depends entirely on what they cover, how they are constructed, and how long they are supposed to last.

Based on human history, national politics is based on betrayal; and international treaties are made to be broken. To think otherwise is to be naive. Even a business agreement must stand or fall on direct, continuous mutual benefit, and might need to be renegotiated periodically.

A "piece of paper" (as Hitler termed the Munich Agreement) has never stopped anyone who finds its terms too restrictive, inconvenient, or no longer useful.

Dieter
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juerg haeberli
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So out of curiosity how does your metagame work ?

I understand you dont do treaties.

Most important questions:

What does the West do in 36 if it goes before Axis?

What does the West do if it sees a strong Axis military build in 36 ?

What does the West do if Axis fleets enter Atlantic and/or Pazifik ?

What Axis openings have you tried ?

Whats the distributions of wins in your environment ?
 
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Quote:
It would be interesting to try out a house rule that stipulates a World Reaction of 1 Action card for unilaterally breaking a negotiated treaty.


How about a World Reaction of 1 Action card to the Rival left out of a treaty? I'm thinking of the electrifying effect of the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact.

Heh, and while we're at it . . . imagine a FOURTH (junior) player who wants to play.

A. The UK decides to ditch France. The new French Rival receives 6 Action cards, the maximum Industry that it can now support (subtracted from the West), and a place in the turn order.

B. Germany decides to ditch Italy. The new Italian player receives 6 Action cards, the maximum Industry that it can support, and a place in the turn order.

C. India successfully declares independence. The new Indian player receives 2 Action cards, 3 Industry, 5 cadres, and a place in the turn order.

D. Turkey dreams Ottoman. The new Turk player, receives 2 Action cards, 1 Industry, 6 cadres, and a place in the turn order. Diplomacy should be interesting.

E. The US turns activist, and becomes the world's police. The new American player intervenes (for humanitarian reasons, of course) in the Spanish Civil War beginning in 1936. Starting with a budget of 3 IND (limited by Pop), 6 Action cards, and the following military CVs: 1 Infantry, 4 Naval, 2 Carrier, 2 Subs, and 3 Air Force. Citing Russian interference in the Spanish elections, the US sides with the now-Friendly Nationalists in Leon. The formerly Axis-supported Nationalists begin with 2CV AF, 2CV Inf, 1CV Inf (use US units). The Soviet and Hollywood supported Republicans start with 1CV AF, 3 x 1CV Inf in Madrid and Barcelona (use Soviet units). Japan still attacks the interventionist US in December 1941, and US units start appearing in New York and Washington on schedule. Diplomacy should also be interesting.

This game will never get boring! :-)

Dieter
 
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