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Subject: Speeding up the game when you have a slow player. rss

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George Kramer
South Korea
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A friend just came by today and proposed an interesting idea to speed up the game.

Last night we had a game of 4 players. I sat out because 6 people came and since I play TM all the time I let them play it and I played a 2 player of Lords of Waterdeep. We got two games of that done in under 3 hours and waited to watch the others finish Terra-forming Mars and it took them almost 5 hours to do.

Now understandable there was an inexperienced player there but the main problem was another player that takes too long when drafting or taking his turn.

We have tried putting him on time limit it works sometimes. I love drafting and the idea of it but that takes to long with him and when we don't draft it still takes long for him to start the game and to take his turn. He just calculates everything too much and thinks too much about his moves. I don't mind for I respect it but other players hate it.

That brings me to one of the players that suggested today we get 3 cards instead of 4 cards to speed up the game.

I don't know about it but i said we will give it a try but I like seeing as many cards as I can to play the best I can.

Would it be best to just speed it up no drafting?
Or raise production up on all stats?
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The Shader
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If you have a very AP player you are gonna have to deal with it or drop drafting if you need speed imho.
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Hugh G. Rection
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Mocking helps. devil

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Mihir Shah
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We do a market row instead of a draft, completely eliminating the research phase
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Sean Grabowski
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So then, instead of seeing 4 (and only four cards, with no drafting), the AP prone player can see up to 8 cards, and then have to decide if it's worth X MC to buy any number of those cards? And then face the decision point of buying a card to "hate draft" it from someone else who's strategy it will benefit? And then, whether he/she should play that card since, "Well, I have it now, no point in having wasted that money, I have plenty of time to play all of these cards in my hand.". And then looking over the replacement card that flipped off the deck and deciding whether or not to buy THAT card. And THEN thinking about all the cards that they remember the other players buying, and whether or not they are going to play them against him. AND THEN FINALLY getting back to the cards already in hand and going over each one thinking about when they want to play it, wishing they could have played it this generation, thinking about which one benefits them most to play right now, thinking about playing it, but deciding to wait and choosing a different card to play, or use plants/heat to bump the TR (but if I do that, then Player Y can bump it twice and get X reward, so I will wait).....


Don't try to come up with game variants to speed up slow players. Just woman up and tell the slow player he's ruining the fun for everyone BY BEING SLOW!

The problem isn't with the game, it's with the gamer.
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daniel balik
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Wow, I never understand these obscure play times.
We played 4player game two days ago and finished in 103 minutes (9 generations)

- we played drafting variant and cooperate era obviously (I never played without CA cards)
- we played with Venus Next expansion
- only 2 of us were experienced TM players, one guy was absolutely new to the game and other guy played his second TM game.

I really think there is something wrong if TM game went 4+ hours.
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Maximilian Berbechelov
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Ours went 5+ hours.

One of our guys thinks A LOT. And changes his mind A LOT.
Yelling, mocking, bickering, fighting - nothing helps it just ruins the night.

So I sold the game. Can't handle that much AP.
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Jack of Clubs
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Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
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How I cured my AP:

Review the facts:

1. It's only a game. Nothing bad is going to happen if I lose.
2. Nothing bad is going to happen if I don't make the perfect move every turn.
3. In a minute, I can come up with a possible move for my turn that is good. And probably good enough.
4. If I think about my turn for ten times longer, I *might* come up with a move that's 1% better than what I thought of immediately.
5. That 1% improvement I could get for ten times the time and effort will probably not make a difference in the final outcome of the game.
6. Thinking about it for a long time is also likely to lead me to make a worse move than the one I thought of first.
7. It's all just a guess anyway. I can make the best guess I can come up with quickly, and see what happens. If it doesn't work out, I'll know and try something different the next time I play.
8. This "guess and see what happens" method will probably improve my playing faster than painstakingly analyzing every move of every game.
9. Experimental data is much more valuable than theoretical analysis and prediction. Since it is just a game.
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RyuSora
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There is a few things you could do to speed up the game, but i am not sure any of these will actually solve your particular problem. I would suggest instead of receiving cards 4 and decide what to buy, just give 3 cards for free to everyone.

Suggestions and variants for a shorter game:

Suggestion: Dont play with draft

Suggestion: Play without the corporation era cards

Variant not official: If playing with corp era cards, still start with 1 production on each resource

Variant not official: Solar phase (check the forum for this one, it is a rule that must be used with venus next expansion. But this should not normally be used when playing the base game alone)

Variant not official: Start the terraforming parameters at any other level (example: start oxygen at 2% and etc).
free
Any of those will make the game faster.

Cheers
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Joshua Schutte
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https://www.qcsupply.com/50090-magrath-stock-shock-9-24.html...
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Philip Mazzone
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Another one of these TM playing time threads. And again Ill post that we player just 2 player, and its a 3-4hr game everytime. And we dont even draft..... We are not slow by any means when its our turn. Its just we really like to have built up an engine before we actually terraform anything, and we absolutely love the game at that time frame.

If we ever played it at 2hrs, we prob would feel we didnt get to do anything.
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George Kramer
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danissimus wrote:
Wow, I never understand these obscure play times.
We played 4player game two days ago and finished in 103 minutes (9 generations)

- we played drafting variant and cooperate era obviously (I never played without CA cards)
- we played with Venus Next expansion
- only 2 of us were experienced TM players, one guy was absolutely new to the game and other guy played his second TM game.

I really think there is something wrong if TM game went 4+ hours.


I agree with you here. I have played many a game where it is 2 hours or under. I don't want to changed the rules just like what Sean said above got to man up and tell to move his ass even though we have done that. I like the longest turn award card though. Pretty funny.
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Steve G
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I haven't had this problem, but consider encouraging them to begin planning out their next turn as soon as they finish their turn? I think you often know the direction your engine is going and your opponent's every play doesn't have major impact to it. Or at the very least you can usually say to yourself if this global parameter hits X by my next turn I'm playing A but if it doesn't I'm playing B.

Or consider a game or two where everyone is restricted to one play on each turn (instead of the usual one or two) to reduce the amount of thinking required on any given turn. Yes, it has some impact on strategy but there aren't that many cases where you really must make two plays back to back without anyone going in between. If sacrificing that element shaves some time off your five hour game probably well worth it! And maybe a few games this way helps the slow player learn to think about the game faster?
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Bill Collins
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I think this can be a problem in any game. Some players want to do more analysis inside their head. Whether it’s because they think through more combinations or because they just can’t quite grapple with all the information quickly. I’ve had moments myself where I’ve gone into near brain lock, held up a game and felt bad, but something in my brain wouldn’t let me move. I’ve tried to train myself to “just make a decision”. And I know people in my gaming group who, depending on the game, take forever to analyze options.

This would actually be a really interesting study for brain researchers. As said upthread, making faster decisions can actually help you learn from them. Not everyone can bring themselves to that point.
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kaha preclo
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You can get a 30-second timer and put it in front of him.
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Bryan Thunkd
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ryusora wrote:
There is a few things you could do to speed up the game, but i am not sure any of these will actually solve your particular problem. I would suggest instead of receiving cards 4 and decide what to buy, just give 3 cards for free to everyone.

Suggestions and variants for a shorter game:

Suggestion: Dont play with draft

Suggestion: Play without the corporation era cards

Variant not official: If playing with corp era cards, still start with 1 production on each resource

Variant not official: Solar phase (check the forum for this one, it is a rule that must be used with venus next expansion. But this should not normally be used when playing the base game alone)

Variant not official: Start the terraforming parameters at any other level (example: start oxygen at 2% and etc).
free
Any of those will make the game faster.
You left out the best option.

Suggestion: Don't play with AP players.
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T Z
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Assuming you're not using the Venus expansion, you could port over the Solar Phase mechanic to speed up your game.

At the end of each turn, the 1st player to go that turn raises a parameter of their choosing by 1 step. Any potential bonuses are ignored.
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Joe
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I don't think we've ever played this game with drafting, it works fine without it although drafting probably reduces luck of the draw a bit.

Also, we often have a fixed time when we must finish gaming-there is little flexibility in this regard. So, if there is an hour left before we have to pack the game up, the motivation is high to play fast enough to get the game done. Allow maybe three hours to play the game and let everyone know that three hours is a hard time limit and keep things moving at a pace that will get the game done within that time frame.

In TM, because of the previously mentioned time limit, we have played simultaneous turns if necessary and resolved any 'turn order' issues in a way the makes the most sense, it's either that or just pack the game up without finishing.
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RyuSora
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Thunkd wrote:
ryusora wrote:
There is a few things you could do to speed up the game, but i am not sure any of these will actually solve your particular problem. I would suggest instead of receiving cards 4 and decide what to buy, just give 3 cards for free to everyone.

Suggestions and variants for a shorter game:

Suggestion: Dont play with draft

Suggestion: Play without the corporation era cards

Variant not official: If playing with corp era cards, still start with 1 production on each resource

Variant not official: Solar phase (check the forum for this one, it is a rule that must be used with venus next expansion. But this should not normally be used when playing the base game alone)

Variant not official: Start the terraforming parameters at any other level (example: start oxygen at 2% and etc).
free
Any of those will make the game faster.
You left out the best option.

Suggestion: Don't play with AP players.


HEY! Some folks just enjoy the pain of playing with AP players, lets not be rude to them.
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Bill Collins
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Or some people enjoy playing games in the company of friends. If the game is more important than the time with people what does that say?
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f s
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
How I cured my AP:
(...)
3. In a minute, I can come up with a possible move for my turn that is good. And probably good enough.
4. If I think about my turn for ten times longer, I *might* come up with a move that's 1% better than what I thought of immediately.
5. That 1% improvement I could get for ten times the time and effort will probably not make a difference in the final outcome of the game.
6. Thinking about it for a long time is also likely to lead me to make a worse move than the one I thought of first.
(...)
8. This "guess and see what happens" method will probably improve my playing faster than painstakingly analyzing every move of every game.
8. Experimental data is much more valuable than theoretical analysis and prediction. Since it is just a game.


I believe that all that is true, but hard to implement with heavier, longer games that are not played that often.

Lighter games might be the answer.

If you play with people who are overwhelmed by all the options and take too long for that reasons, eliminate options, i.e. play lighter games. Or play with other people.
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f s
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danissimus wrote:
Wow, I never understand these obscure play times.
We played 4player game two days ago and finished in 103 minutes (9 generations)
(...)
I really think there is something wrong if TM game went 4+ hours.


I find playing a 4-player game of TM in 103 minutes obscure (and unlikely).

4+ hours is abit much. But 3 hours is about normal for a 4 player game.
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Geoff Speare
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tee hee, that tickles!!!
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Hugh_G_Rection wrote:
Mocking helps. devil


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Volker S.
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Let all players stand up while making their moves. It is healthy and speeds up the game. (Also a very good meeting tactic).
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BD
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varianor wrote:
Or some people enjoy playing games in the company of friends. If the game is more important than the time with people what does that say?


Well said Sir Bill! The social aspect of the hobby is the best part of the gaming experience.

If a player is taking longer with their decision making process, waiting players can do something pleasantly interactive like........ having a conversation?
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