Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

Codenames» Forums » Rules

Subject: Incorrect Guess Before the Clue is Given rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Stuart Jimenez
United States
flag msg tools
My game group was ending the night with Codenames and we ran into a situation I hadn't seen before.

In round one I gave the clue "Crime 2" and my team correctly guessed "Thief" right away. Then they started discussing "Lock" because thieves pick locks and "Gold" because thieves steal gold, but both of those were words for the other team (so clearly I did not think out my clue very well). They decided on "Lock" and our turn was over. When it got back to us, before I could even give my second clue, one of my team members touched "Gold" because he was a bit over-excited and was sure it was right. That's where we had to pause and think about how to handle it.

I suggested that I would be able to give the clue I was about to give, but the opposing team would get to cover "Gold" and my team would not get any other guesses that turn, but they could use that clue for their extra guesses on later turns. Everyone agreed and we continued the game.

I'm just curious if that is how other people would have handled it, or if you would have made a different choice, or if there is an official ruling for this situation. Thanks!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Edgar Wilde
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, would probably do the same.
I hope your team acts less excitable in future.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Grogan
United Kingdom
Cullompton
Devon
flag msg tools
designer
Check out all my instructional How to Play videos at youtube.com/GamingRulesVideos
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What I would have done:
He guessed too early. Just ask him to remove his hand, tell him that he guessed too early and to wait for the clue. And then the game continues as normal with the spymaster giving the clue.
I.e. Just treat it as if it never happened.

Was Gold one of your words? You suggest that the other team should cover it? That's the bit that confused me.

As long as their choice doesn't impact on what clue you were going to give, it doesn't really matter. As long as you don't give any verbal or visual clues to the fact that Gold was right or wrong, I'm not sure it matters.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M. B. Downey
United States
Suitland
Maryland
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PaulGrogan wrote:
Was Gold one of your words? You suggest that the other team should cover it? That's the bit that confused me.


Gold was the other team's word.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dizz
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
Avatar
Guessing does not start until after the clue is given. So, with my best poker face, I would ask that he wait for the clue to be given and then he can vote for whatever he wants. Hopefully by then, his team was scolding him. If they weren't, I would remind him that it is a team game.

That being said, we also play that you must touch AND say final answer. Had too many instances of people touching the cards without thinking and the opposing team rules-lawyering them. Not sure that would have avoided this situation, but someone might have had time to interrupt them before completing "final answer!"
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
New Brunswick
New Jersey
flag msg tools
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
badge
Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PaulGrogan wrote:
What I would have done:
He guessed too early. Just ask him to remove his hand, tell him that he guessed too early and to wait for the clue. And then the game continues as normal with the spymaster giving the clue.
I.e. Just treat it as if it never happened.

Was Gold one of your words? You suggest that the other team should cover it? That's the bit that confused me.

As long as their choice doesn't impact on what clue you were going to give, it doesn't really matter. As long as you don't give any verbal or visual clues to the fact that Gold was right or wrong, I'm not sure it matters.

Yes, I agree with this. The guessing phase simply doesn't begin until the clue is given, so touching words is meaningless before that.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark L
United Kingdom
Belfast
Northern Ireland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MD1616 wrote:
PaulGrogan wrote:
What I would have done:
He guessed too early. Just ask him to remove his hand, tell him that he guessed too early and to wait for the clue. And then the game continues as normal with the spymaster giving the clue.
I.e. Just treat it as if it never happened.

Was Gold one of your words? You suggest that the other team should cover it? That's the bit that confused me.

As long as their choice doesn't impact on what clue you were going to give, it doesn't really matter. As long as you don't give any verbal or visual clues to the fact that Gold was right or wrong, I'm not sure it matters.

Yes, I agree with this. The guessing phase simply doesn't begin until the clue is given, so touching words is meaningless before that.

I agree as well, as long as no-one had said or done anything to imply whether "Gold" was right or not.

If you or one of the opposing team had given it away, then I think your way of handling it was best.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Blumhardt
United States
Fargo
North Dakota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Brandizzle wrote:
That being said, we also play that you must touch AND say final answer. Had too many instances of people touching the cards without thinking and the opposing team rules-lawyering them. Not sure that would have avoided this situation, but someone might have had time to interrupt them before completing "final answer!"


Due to the over-eagerness of a particular player, we actually put in place a rule that two people have to touch a clue at the same time to make it an official guess.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
WarpedLord wrote:
Due to the over-eagerness of a particular player, we actually put in place a rule that two people have to touch a clue at the same time to make it an official guess.

I like this. Most players are too scared to touch words unless it's unanimous.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MD1616 wrote:
PaulGrogan wrote:
What I would have done:
He guessed too early. Just ask him to remove his hand, tell him that he guessed too early and to wait for the clue. And then the game continues as normal with the spymaster giving the clue.
I.e. Just treat it as if it never happened.

Was Gold one of your words? You suggest that the other team should cover it? That's the bit that confused me.

As long as their choice doesn't impact on what clue you were going to give, it doesn't really matter. As long as you don't give any verbal or visual clues to the fact that Gold was right or wrong, I'm not sure it matters.

Yes, I agree with this. The guessing phase simply doesn't begin until the clue is given, so touching words is meaningless before that.


As long as it is handled the same way no matter who the word belonged to.

Though, really early guessing gives information to the clue giver, even if very small.

In a friendly party setting, no big deal.

If I was running a tournament, touching a word early would result in a forfeited turn for the team. This would mean the cluegiver does not get to give a clue and it would also mean nobody gets credit for the guessed word. (Play it as if the turn was skipped and no guess made.) Though I might even be willing to go as far as forfeiting the round.

The reason for a harsh ruling in a competitive setting is you could use early card touching as a way to signal to your team what word you want to guess (or don't want to guess) depending on conventions. So harsh penalties are sometimes needed to say "no, don't do that. really. just don't.


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Amanda Zimmer
United States
Decatur
GA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mfl134 wrote:
The reason for a harsh ruling in a competitive setting is you could use early card touching as a way to signal to your team what word you want to guess (or don't want to guess) depending on conventions. So harsh penalties are sometimes needed to say "no, don't do that. really. just don't.

How is touching the card too early (ie: out of turn) conveying more information than simply discussing out loud with your team that you are "definitely going to touch that word next turn because it makes the most sense"?
Unless there is limits to when your team is allowed to discuss with each other?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max DuBoff
United States
New Brunswick
New Jersey
flag msg tools
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
badge
Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
iamzimmer wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
The reason for a harsh ruling in a competitive setting is you could use early card touching as a way to signal to your team what word you want to guess (or don't want to guess) depending on conventions. So harsh penalties are sometimes needed to say "no, don't do that. really. just don't.

How is touching the card too early (ie: out of turn) conveying more information than simply discussing out loud with your team that you are "definitely going to touch that word next turn because it makes the most sense"?
Unless there is limits to when your team is allowed to discuss with each other?

I think most people play with implied limits (e.g. no chatting about guesses before the clue is given). Part of the reason Codenames is unsuitable for tournament play is that unspoken etiquette is important.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Amanda Zimmer
United States
Decatur
GA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MD1616 wrote:
iamzimmer wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
The reason for a harsh ruling in a competitive setting is you could use early card touching as a way to signal to your team what word you want to guess (or don't want to guess) depending on conventions. So harsh penalties are sometimes needed to say "no, don't do that. really. just don't.

How is touching the card too early (ie: out of turn) conveying more information than simply discussing out loud with your team that you are "definitely going to touch that word next turn because it makes the most sense"?
Unless there is limits to when your team is allowed to discuss with each other?

I think most people play with implied limits (e.g. no chatting about guesses before the clue is given). Part of the reason Codenames is unsuitable for tournament play is that unspoken etiquette is important.

Ah.
Sometimes when I've played, a team may be in so deep a discussion trying to figure out that last "crazy" clue that they don't realize the other team has finished their turn.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mfl134
United States
Havertown
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
My words literally betray me.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
iamzimmer wrote:
MD1616 wrote:
iamzimmer wrote:
mfl134 wrote:
The reason for a harsh ruling in a competitive setting is you could use early card touching as a way to signal to your team what word you want to guess (or don't want to guess) depending on conventions. So harsh penalties are sometimes needed to say "no, don't do that. really. just don't.

How is touching the card too early (ie: out of turn) conveying more information than simply discussing out loud with your team that you are "definitely going to touch that word next turn because it makes the most sense"?
Unless there is limits to when your team is allowed to discuss with each other?

I think most people play with implied limits (e.g. no chatting about guesses before the clue is given). Part of the reason Codenames is unsuitable for tournament play is that unspoken etiquette is important.

Ah.
Sometimes when I've played, a team may be in so deep a discussion trying to figure out that last "crazy" clue that they don't realize the other team has finished their turn.


From a strategic perspective, I'd would deem it silly to have any discussion during the other teams turn. Why provide any additional insight or information? (if you were playing with timers, perhaps there is value to discussing during this time.)


And to address the first question, hitting a card with the intent to select is a stronger comment to your cluegiver that you are going to pick that. It gives it extra urgency.

But as max said, this game is played very liberally with respect to talking. I'd rather not allow the cluegiver to hear any discussion.

Though if open discussion is allowed, I'd prefer the discussion be about interpreting clue with the intent of interpreting the clues. Many people interpret clues allow with the intent of telling the cluegiver how you are interpreting the clue, and thus to help guide future clues.

The problem is, it is hard to define where the line is between the two. I don't really like grey area in games, unless we are just calling it a party game. And if it is just a party game, we don't need to ask rules questions about it anyway for how to handle situations like discussed in this thread. (Though it is fine to see how others might have handled such a situation, the game rules lead to lots of communication ambiguities that promote, "play the game as you like" rather than "play the game in this exact way".)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Bachman
United States
Colonie
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
mfl134 wrote:
From a strategic perspective, I'd would deem it silly to have any discussion during the other teams turn. Why provide any additional insight or information? (if you were playing with timers, perhaps there is value to discussing during this time.)

If I am confident that a word is one of my opponents', I am talking to my teammates about how it has to be one of ours with a stretch connection. If my opponents are convinced I am wrong, they may pass on selecting the word with a false hope that my team will. If they are not convinced I am wrong, they are going to look at other words instead.

mfl134 wrote:
But as max said, this game is played very liberally with respect to talking. I'd rather not allow the cluegiver to hear any discussion.

This kind of takes the "party" out of "party game" by putting the cluegiver in a isolated environment.

I brought Codenames into work to use for teambuilding. Having open discussions about the connections people were making and the stretches they were open to provided good insight into their life experiences and thought processes. I would never consider taking the cluegivers out of that experience.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
R. O. Schaefer
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Some are overthinking the issue. The cluegiver always has some idea of how the team will go on with left over clues due to the discussion going on - as long as he has more than one team member to guess. The guessers don't have to explicitely say "We will pick this next turn" - it just evolves from the discussion you cannot forbid. With cluegiver not joining open discussion (I really like to have 6 people to play so that the teams have to discuss) would make the game a bit dry.

But I don't think he gains that much from that information anyway. If the team is on the right track and just made a false coin flip between own/neutral word they will correct it next turn and basically everything goes as intended for the cluegiver.
If they are dead wrong and discussing opponent's words cluegiver is in trouble anyway. He might try to correct thing with some zero tipps or the like, but the loss of time should usually be decisive anyway.

Cluegiver gains way more from listening to the other team's discussion and carefully checking their words. Not only to avoid mistakes by his team, but also to leave difficult words of opponent's team open by delaying own words that would make oppenent's clue easier once covered.

Edit: To the op: Obviously the other team wasn't interested in playing the game, but rather in 'winning'. They've already received a gift from your team round 1. Insisting on a second one is pretty much game over. So you can start a new game immediately.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Anderson
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
mfl134 wrote:
But as max said, this game is played very liberally with respect to talking. I'd rather not allow the cluegiver to hear any discussion.

Though if open discussion is allowed, I'd prefer the discussion be about interpreting clue with the intent of interpreting the clues. Many people interpret clues allow with the intent of telling the cluegiver how you are interpreting the clue, and thus to help guide future clues.
I can't speak for the designers, but in my opinion the cluegivers hearing the discussion (of both teams) was intended as an important aspect to guide future clues. I don't think it would be as fun/good of a game if all the discussion was done behind sound proof glass (or some home-brewed equivalent).

However I do really like and think the no communication/reaction from the cluegivers other than "word + number" rule is important and should be enforced as much as humanly possible. I try to make a habit of covering my mouth and adopting the same "pose" after I give my clue to eliminate any reactions to discussion.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.