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Subject: Sorcerer skill NECROMANCY a spin off from another post rss

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Andrew Moore
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Ok so help me out here and correct me if you think this is a dumb way to play

Here's how our humble little massive darkness crew views Necromancy skill for the sorcerer as it is NECROMANCY after all: Can you tell my character is the Sorcerer?

You wound (attack or skill) 1 minion member of a mob (think a zombie bite, if they don't die they are infected and die anyway regardless of health) or you kill it with wounds normally in that attack (any "wound" or death of minion will do) ... with that dead minion mob member(or wound) you can trigger the necromancer skill (only if you chose to do so) that dead minion is raised N..E..C..R..O..M..A..N..C..Y.. and it attacks the mob (with the red die). As it becomes more powerful (leveled up) your Necro attacker is more effective hence using two red die. Also note for bigger picture it is a singular Necro attacker.

We view all of this as an attack (that is mostly effective) against a mob. We don't let Necro pour over to the boss if Necro is triggered with a minion remaining. (to alleviate confusion 2 minions and boss remain, you wound or kill 1 minion, then trigger necro to attack the final minion that damage does not roll over to the boss) We see it as a dead minion can only attack another minion if they are alive, and all minions must be killed or one single remaining minion gets wounded(killed) in an attack to trigger Necro against a boss.

It comes in handy if you roll an attack on a single remaining minion and that attack is overkill. With Necro you can do damage to the boss without having to take another (attack) action by triggering necro on the minion you just overkilled.

Necro is mostly effective against mobs but not really against individuals. We allow it to be used against a boss only under special circumstances(mentioned above). It can be used if there is only one minion remaining and you wound/kill it (then trigger), or you kill all the minions in an attack (then trigger), or kill all but one minion and at least wound that final minion (then trigger) turning one raised minion against it's boss. We also let it be used against a single enemy only if a boss is killed before his one remaining mob member (like the mob is stunned allowing you to assign wounds to the boss) then if you wanted and still had the skill (only one use per activation) you could single wound (then trigger) and initiate an instant death on the last mob member minion. However, usually that is pointless since simple attacks kill mob minion members without their bosses loot.

It cannot be used against solo roaming monsters

Edit:After re-reading and changing some things I realize this skill is far more complicated than I gave it credit... good lord. I also feel like this interpretation does not bend any rules in the rule book as I have been researching. Having a bigger picture (what does necromancy mean) helps in understanding what you think can be done with the skill

Thanks for any and all responses and input
 
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James Turner
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Here's how I understand it:

When you successfully attack a mob, you first Wound a minion. If the total number of current Wounds is equal to or greater than the minion's health total, that minion is killed. If it is not the last minion in the mob, then any remaining Wounds can be assigned to other minions in the same mob. If it is the last minion in the mob, then any remaining damage is lost, since you can't damage the boss in the same attack as a minion.

With Necromancy (I don't remember what it's called on the sheet), when you Wound a minion, you can choose to kill it outright to roll a red die (or later, two red dice). You assign Wounds equal to the number of swords on the red die to the remainder of the mob.

This red die is not an Attack, per se, but a continuation of the original attack. Therefore, the red dice from the skill cannot be used to Wound the boss, since the original Attack was used to kill a minion, and bosses cannot be damaged in the same Attack as a minion.

So, in bullet format:

* Attack the mob.
* Do at least 1 Wound.
* Choose to activate the Skill, killing the Wounded minion.
* Roll 1 or 2 red dice, depending on the Skill's level.
* Count swords and apply that number as Wounds to the mob. If the killed Minion was the last one in the mob, then no further damage is done.
* Profit!

Having 1 Health doesn't mean the minion is killed before it is Wounded; it's Wounded, and then if the number of total Wounds is greater than its Health, it dies. In this case, the Skill triggers on the Wounding, and thus the Skill would kill the minion before it would normally die.

This Skill is awesome against Orc Flayers, by the way, and other high-HP/low Defense mobs.

EDIT: There's nothing stopping you from using this against a mob with only one remaining minion. In that case, you would Wound, then kill the minion, and then the red-die roll has no effect.
 
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Christopher Baughman

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My reading of the skill is that you must wound the minion.. so if you kill it outright you don’t get a red die. Ie you do 2 to a 2 health minion.

Is my understanding correct?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Erroll wrote:
My reading of the skill is that you must wound the minion.. so if you kill it outright you don’t get a red die. Ie you do 2 to a 2 health minion.

Is my understanding correct?

We doi=n't really know and I've never been that enthused to ask. I treat a killed minion as still having taken wounds.
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Chuck Hurd
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Clipper wrote:
Erroll wrote:
My reading of the skill is that you must wound the minion.. so if you kill it outright you don’t get a red die. Ie you do 2 to a 2 health minion.

Is my understanding correct?

We doi=n't really know and I've never been that enthused to ask. I treat a killed minion as still having taken wounds.

As do we. After all, if it's killed it's even more thematic with Necromancy, no? Otherwise it's more like mind control or something over a living being.
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Andrew Moore
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Ok thank you so much guys and Clipper? I 100% agree... as I am trying to get a bigger thematic overall picture of the skill. It's necromancy so a (wounded) and thus dead minion can be raised right????

The wound then kill or wound results in kill we treat the same. If anything I feel like the real stretch in the rules is that wounds that aren't kills, kill anyway, but the skill clearly states that.

Also it states if you wound a minion, then kill it, not wound a minion and it dies you cannot.

And my point here (sorry I am new here I changed it to your username) my point here Silopolis is imagine the skill "Zap" you kill the final minion, then use "Zap" and attack the boss...... or you kill(wound) the final minion, then use Necro to attack the boss... it seems to make perfect sense to me no? The only time I will not roll over, well technically it's not a rollover in my previous, but if there is two minions, and I kill(wound) one of them then use (let's say level 3 Necro) if those dice overkill the last minion it does not roll over and I have to use a complete other skill, or attack, or signature to attack the boss.

Oh also Clipper? here is a scenario. there is a "mob" thus boss + minions. you attack the mob, you wound 1 minion, and stun the mob, then trigger necro... since "mob" includes the boss and the skill states trigger necro to wound the mob... and the mob is stunned... and the rules state that with a stunned mob you can assign wounds to the boss... I should be able to "assign" wounds to the boss with necro no???
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Sounds correct.
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Andrew Moore
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Carcking EXACTLY! My thought as written above is it's like being infected (zombie bite) the zombie bite is the wound, and triggering necro "turns" them undead, so regardless of health "they ded". or if they are wounded to the point of dying, triggering necro rises them into a single attacking zombie. you must then reference the rules on what and how that zombie attacker works... can it attack the boss? Well not if there are minions. Does it's damage roll over to the boss if it overkills the last minion in the mob? No the rules clearly state that they do not. Can your raised zombie attacker assign wounds to the boss if the "mob" is stunned? Yes the rules state you can, he is stunned and thus not defended. Can you use it on a single minion with the boss dead? Of course a minion is part of a mob, trigger it (if you wound it) and "he ded", then it's raised... with nothing to do but walk around and ask for BRAINS......
 
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Andrew Moore
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Hey Clipper I've seen some of your posts, and quick responses... thanks for all you do and your input! It's appreciated
 
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Chuck Hurd
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It seems, as Necro is not tied specifically to an Attack, that you could necro the last minion and attempt to inflict wounds on the Boss. There is no Attack prerequisite attached to the skill.
 
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Jonathon Thompson
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Carcking wrote:
It seems, as Necro is not tied specifically to an Attack, that you could necro the last minion and attempt to inflict wounds on the Boss. There is no Attack prerequisite attached to the skill.

Taken from page 23 of the Rulebook "A Boss cannot be Wounded as long as at least 1 of its Minion escorts stands beside it in the same Zone." This does not limit it to Attacks. Anything like Zap or Headbutt cannot do damage to the Boss if a Minion is standing (exception as always is Stun).
 
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James Turner
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There are two questions here, as I see it.

Question 1: If I kill a minion with the original attack, can I use Necro?

Answer (as I see it): Yes! If you killed a minion, you had to have wounded it. Once you wound it, you activate Necro, kill it, and then roll the red die. Normally, when you wound a minion, and it has damage equal to its Health, it dies after it takes the wounds. Since Necro triggers when you wound it, the minion dies from Necro before it would have died from its wounds as normal.

Question 2: Can I apply the red die damage to the boss if I killed the last minion with the original attack?

Answer: No. https://boardgamegeek.com/article/26670820#26670820

The relevant ruling from Suzy D. @ CMON:

Quote:
With Necro Skill, the wounds do not transfer to the boss. Once the mobs/minion have been removed from the board using the skill, a new attack must be made against the boss. Unless otherwise stated on the skill card, you always need to make an attack once the Boss is completely unprotected in order to wound it.


As an aside, Necro is totally worth it. Depending on the mob, the red die alone could kill three minion, and the instant-kill-on-wound is great for using against high-HP/low-defense mobs like Orc Flayers. If you get just one sword, you can activate Necro to outright kill a minion. When you get the second level of the skill, you can remove whole mobs of minions. They also get no defense against the red die, so it can take out dwarves in plate mail.

It is all but useless when you're fighting a mob with only one minion left, but you can decide not to use Necro after you see how much damage you do with your original attack. If you wound but don't kill the last minion, activate Necro and kill it anyway.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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jtpoke wrote:
Carcking wrote:
It seems, as Necro is not tied specifically to an Attack, that you could necro the last minion and attempt to inflict wounds on the Boss. There is no Attack prerequisite attached to the skill.

Taken from page 23 of the Rulebook "A Boss cannot be Wounded as long as at least 1 of its Minion escorts stands beside it in the same Zone." This does not limit it to Attacks. Anything like Zap or Headbutt cannot do damage to the Boss if a Minion is standing (exception as always is Stun).

That text does not provide an answer to my post.

The premise is that the Boss is alone for a duration - it's the time it takes after you kill the last minion to then roll the Red die. The Boss is alone and not as a result of a skill that has an Attack prerequisite.

If Necro only worked as part of an Attack I would agree that you could not extend it to inflict wounds on an un-stunned boss. It would all be part of the same attack. But there is no Attack requirement.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I am also of the belief that Nekro, among all the other similar skills, doesn't allow you to damage a non-Stunned Mob's Boss in the same attack/event that you take out the last Minion.

That was the gist of the ruling we were given. Anything, attack or otherwise, that damages or kills Minions cannot damage the Boss if it started out having a Minion buddy. You need another action or ability you can trigger to do so.

I will say that we don't have a word for word ruling for it, but we don't want to start compiling a list of every single ability that could cause this to work or not and ask separately. It's best to just say none of them work.
 
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James Turner
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Carcking wrote:
jtpoke wrote:
Carcking wrote:
It seems, as Necro is not tied specifically to an Attack, that you could necro the last minion and attempt to inflict wounds on the Boss. There is no Attack prerequisite attached to the skill.

Taken from page 23 of the Rulebook "A Boss cannot be Wounded as long as at least 1 of its Minion escorts stands beside it in the same Zone." This does not limit it to Attacks. Anything like Zap or Headbutt cannot do damage to the Boss if a Minion is standing (exception as always is Stun).

That text does not provide an answer to my post.

The premise is that the Boss is alone for a duration - it's the time it takes after you kill the last minion to then roll the Red die. The Boss is alone and not as a result of a skill that has an Attack prerequisite.

If Necro only worked as part of an Attack I would agree that you could not extend it to inflict wounds on an un-stunned boss. It would all be part of the same attack. But there is no Attack requirement.


See my post above yours. The official CMON ruling is that Necro is still part of the same attack (note the little-a) that damaged the mob when there were minions, so the remaining damage cannot roll over to the boss. The boss cannot be wounded by anything that damages the mob while it still has minions on the table. Since there were minions in the mob when the original Attack/Zap/Headbutt/Whatever happened, the boss cannot be damaged by the resulting red die/dice from Necro.

Page 36 of the rulebook PDF says:

Quote:
"Only after all Minions have been eliminated can the Heroes target the Boss. Even if the Attack that kills the last Minion could still deal more Wounds, those are ignored and a new Attack must be made to kill the Boss."


Necro is additional Wounds resulting from the original attack. Headbutt/Zap/etc. not technically being capital-A Attacks doesn't override this rule. Since you wounded a minion with the Attack/Zap/Headbutt/etc. that triggered Necro, the Necro wounds can't be used to damage the Boss.
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Chuck Hurd
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Clipper wrote:
I am also of the belief that Nekro, among all the other similar skills, doesn't allow you to damage a non-Stunned Mob's Boss in the same attack/event that you take out the last Minion.

That was the gist of the ruling we were given. Anything, attack or otherwise, that damages or kills Minions cannot damage the Boss if it started out having a Minion buddy. You need another action or ability you can trigger to do so.

I will say that we don't have a word for word ruling for it, but we don't want to start compiling a list of every single ability that could cause this to work or not and ask separately. It's best to just say none of them work.

Yeah, true enough. I was just musing I guess. I think it would be better/funner to play that way though. It would give the Sorcerer some teeth in the battle, but it might also make Explosion Escape very exploitable.
 
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James Turner
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It's still an awesome skill. Say you're in the same zone as a mob of orc flayers. You Explosive Escape out of the zone, doing 1 wound, and you trigger Necro. The wounded orc dies outright, and you roll 1 red dice. You get anywhere from 0-3 wounds from the red die, possibly killing another orc. That's the potential of doing (essentially) six wounds worth of damage, killing two minions in a mob, with no defense roll, on a single action without a die roll and no counter-attack (and you got out of their zone, too).

Now imagine a mob of goblin archers. You wound one, kill it, roll the die, and roll 3 swords. You just killed 4 minions with 1 action, no counter.

Dwarves with armor and 2 HP. Wound one, kill it, kill another, and wound a third, with no defense rolls, so the armor item doesn't make a difference. And still no counter.

Those are assuming a really good red die roll, but with the second level, 3 swords isn't at all out of the realm of commonality. You could roll as many as 6 on two reds.
 
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