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Subject: Failing a scenario rss

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Tom Yerton
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What do we do with the road card we played if we failed the first scenario?

Do we draw another one ?
Do we act as if it is still in play ?
 
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Doug Cooley
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Very short answer: just run the scenario again, although you can do some reconfiguring to perhaps improve your odds by choosing other unlocked characters and/or swapping your ability cards. No road card, you aren't on the road. This mostly applies to the very first scenario when you have limited choices.

Longer answer:

At this point, you have two choices...

Go back to Gloomhaven to buy stuff, donate, level up, etc. you can do a City card too. When you come back to this scenario, you will draw another Road card.

Or

Run the scenario again from the top. No road card, because you more or less camped out and tried again in the morning.

A couple of wrinkles...

If you are playing with more characters than players (which is completely legit, no reason you can't change up characters every time as long as they've been unlocked), you can reconfigure the party. Everyone is assumed to have come with and any character not actually playing is out watching the camp or getting drunk or something.

You can also tailor your ability cards to better meet the scenario goals. Since you start with X cards these can be swapped out.

Also, be aware you can only level in Gloomhaven, so if someone got enough XP to level up then you may want to go to Gllomhaven.

If you unlock another scenario, which is possible even if you fail, you can also go there, but you always go to Gloomhaven first. There's no penalty to do this, you don't draw Road cards going to Gloomhaven.
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Tom Yerton
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Well unfortunately we all became exhausted during the first scenario just as we opened up the second door But thanks we will just restart using the same road card.
 
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Ben Kyo
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Tulsatom wrote:
Well unfortunately we all became exhausted during the first scenario just as we opened up the second door But thanks we will just restart using the same road card.

Why make things harder for yourselves? The rules are clear, you don't draw a new road card and you ignore the previous one.
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Doug Cooley
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Tulsatom wrote:
Well unfortunately we all became exhausted during the first scenario just as we opened up the second door But thanks we will just restart using the same road card.


That doesn't change the choices I laid out. Same scenario without going to GH, no road card. You only draw road cards traveling from GH to a location. Ever.

And don't use the abilities that force you to lose a card so early, use those for the basic 2 move or fight until you are further along in a scenario. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Well, usually.

Also, I notice that it takes a few games for people to figure out that you get to keep loot and XP even if you fail, so if you know you're going to fail then focus on getting those. At worst you can donate to the Great Oak and get an extra Blessing.
 
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Chris Sauro
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Benkyo wrote:
Why make things harder for yourselves? The rules are clear, you don't draw a new road card and you ignore the previous one.
It's fair to assume the event made the scenario harder for them, but they might have drawn one that actually helps you in the scenario. Regardless, it's still ignored for the retry, even if they really would rather have its effect.

dcooley wrote:
You only draw road cards traveling from GH to a location. Ever.
You also draw Road events traveling from a scenario to a non-linked scenario. The ability to do this is often ignored since there's usually little to no reason not to return to Gloomhaven before traveling to a non-linked scenario. However, it can be meaningful if, for example, somebody is trying to push off a retirement for some reason or if the party wants to do a scenario linked from Gloomhaven but want to do a Road event instead of a City event in between.
 
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Doug Cooley
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masterzora wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Why make things harder for yourselves? The rules are clear, you don't draw a new road card and you ignore the previous one.
It's fair to assume the event made the scenario harder for them, but they might have drawn one that actually helps you in the scenario. Regardless, it's still ignored for the retry, even if they really would rather have its effect.

dcooley wrote:
You only draw road cards traveling from GH to a location. Ever.
You also draw Road events traveling from a scenario to a non-linked scenario. The ability to do this is often ignored since there's usually little to no reason not to return to Gloomhaven before traveling to a non-linked scenario. However, it can be meaningful if, for example, somebody is trying to push off a retirement for some reason or if the party wants to do a scenario linked from Gloomhaven but want to do a Road event instead of a City event in between.


During which you can stop by Gloomhaven. Splitting hairs that don't need splitting.
 
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Chris Willott
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Once you reach your retirement goal you're no longer allowed to do any scenarios.
 
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Josh Hagood
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If you didn't, don't forget you keep your XP and looted gold/items. So the road card being exhausted in the way the card indicates (bottom of deck or "destroyed", out of the game) makes sense for this. You're licking your wounds and coming back.
 
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Chris Sauro
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dcooley wrote:
During which you can stop by Gloomhaven. Splitting hairs that don't need splitting.
I specifically gave two examples where you could not stop by Gloomhaven. The distinction is meaningful.

Willottica wrote:
Once you reach your retirement goal you're no longer allowed to do any scenarios.
You can as long as you don't go back to Gloomhaven.
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Jeroen
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I would suggest reading the 'common mistakes' thread on this forum. Exhausting that early is quite uncommon.
And, if you like that sort of thing, some strategy threads as well.
 
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Chris Willott
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masterzora wrote:

Willottica wrote:
Once you reach your retirement goal you're no longer allowed to do any scenarios.
You can as long as you don't go back to Gloomhaven.


The exact wording from the rulebook:
" he or she cannot play any new scenarios using a character with a fulfilled personal quest. The character has accomplished his or her dreams and has no more motivation to go exploring monster-filled ruins."

While I agree that the context of this leaves some question, the wording is fairly unambiguous, and is not qualified.
The justification which follows lends strength to the argument that returning to Gloomhaven doesn't suddenly make the character 'remember' that they've fulfilled their quest.

Is there a specific ruling you've seen that states otherwise?
 
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Des T.
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dcooley wrote:

If you are playing with more characters than players (which is completely legit, no reason you can't change up characters every time as long as they've been unlocked)


[nitpick]
There is one reason: parallel playing multiple characters creates multiple lineages. ie.: Retirement perks will be spread out.
[/nitpick]
 
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michael ray
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Willottica wrote:
masterzora wrote:

Willottica wrote:
Once you reach your retirement goal you're no longer allowed to do any scenarios.
You can as long as you don't go back to Gloomhaven.


The exact wording from the rulebook:
" he or she cannot play any new scenarios using a character with a fulfilled personal quest. The character has accomplished his or her dreams and has no more motivation to go exploring monster-filled ruins."

While I agree that the context of this leaves some question, the wording is fairly unambiguous, and is not qualified.
The justification which follows lends strength to the argument that returning to Gloomhaven doesn't suddenly make the character 'remember' that they've fulfilled their quest.

Is there a specific ruling you've seen that states otherwise?


You appear to have cherry picked to help your point. That quote is from the 'announcing retirement' section. You can only announce retirement when in Gloomhaven.

So, there are two steps.
Step 1: Complete your personal quest
Step 2: Announce retirement in gloomhaven

Your quote doesn't apply until both steps have happened.

Also note, that if between completing your quest, and announcing your retirement, you are no longer fulfilling the requirements of your quest, step 1 is no longer valid, and you can't retire. This can happen, for example
Spoiler (click to reveal)
with the quest where you need to have X items when you retire. If you return to gloomhaven, and sell some of the items for cash, you are no longer fulling the requirements, and can't retire
 
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Chris Willott
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Before you return to Gloomhaven, have you fulfilled your personal quest?
Yes?
Then "he or she cannot play any new scenarios using a character with a fulfilled personal quest," seems like it has its criterion met.

But as I stated, the placement of this line is confusing, as it comes (as you rightly state) just after the "announcing retirement" part of it, and you can only announce while in Gloomhaven. The next line though, is pretty clear - your mercenary, having achieved his life goal, doesn't really want to risk death by going on any more adventures. It doesn't put this conditional on a return to Gloomhaven - your character is driven by the need to accomplish something, once accomplished he wouldn't likely need a trip back into town to remind him that that's what his life's purpose was.

Gloomhaven has other instances of rules in a particular section applying more broadly than in just that specific case.

And again, that's just my reading of it - as close as I understand it to a literal interpretation. Context does gives me slight pause, so I'd be interested if you have seen an official clarification. (I'm assuming no, because you didn't mention it earlier, but would welcome a reference if you had!)

*Check out this post for more opinions on the subject.
 
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michael ray
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Willottica wrote:
Before you return to Gloomhaven, have you fulfilled your personal quest?
Yes?
Then "he or she cannot play any new scenarios using a character with a fulfilled personal quest," seems like it has its criterion met.

But as I stated, the placement of this line is confusing, as it comes (as you rightly state) just after the "announcing retirement" part of it, and you can only announce while in Gloomhaven. The next line though, is pretty clear - your mercenary, having achieved his life goal, doesn't really want to risk death by going on any more adventures. It doesn't put this conditional on a return to Gloomhaven - your character is driven by the need to accomplish something, once accomplished he wouldn't likely need a trip back into town to remind him that that's what his life's purpose was.

Gloomhaven has other instances of rules in a particular section applying more broadly than in just that specific case.

And again, that's just my reading of it - as close as I understand it to a literal interpretation. Context does gives me slight pause, so I'd be interested if you have seen an official clarification. (I'm assuming no, because you didn't mention it earlier, but would welcome a reference if you had!)

*Check out this post for more opinions on the subject.


I still think that when you take it in full context, it doesn't say that. But you're right, there is no FAQ/official answer for it.


RAW
ANNOUNCING RETIREMENT
Once a character fulfills the conditions of his or her personal quest, the character must announce retirement when he or she returns to Gloomhaven. The character may perform any other town activities beforehand, but he or she cannot play any new scenarios using a character with a fulfilled personal quest.

Now, lets break it down:
Once a character fulfills the conditions of his or her personal quest, the character must announce retirement when he or she returns to Gloomhaven.
Once you're back in gloomhaven, you have to announce retirement.
The character may perform any other town activities beforehand,
Once you're in Gloomhaven, you don't have to announce instantly, you can still shop/sell/enhance/donate/do a city event/etc
but he or she cannot play any new scenarios using a character with a fulfilled personal quest.
A continuation of the same sentence above, that applies to being in Gloomhaven. Now that you're in Gloomhaven, you can't do any more missions because your personal quest has been achieved.
 
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Dwight Sullivan
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I want to add that you can choose not to go back to Gloomhaven right away. You can stay in the field and do more scenarios even after completing your Personal Quest
 
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Chris Willott
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Yes, Dwight, that's what we're discussing. However, it's unclear from the RAW.

Is that part just a subordinate clause?

The next sentence is not subordinate, and seems to suggest that it's as soon as the quest is fulfilled (not contingent upon a return). Will it change things? Not often, but sometimes.

In fact, my wife's first character fulfilled her goal just after doing the second scenario in a triple-link. Our reading was that we could do the third without her, or all go back to Gloomhaven so she could retire. We went back to Gloomhaven, got blessings, leveled up, bought more items, met our new companion and went to finish the set. It sucked a little, but her new character actually proved perfectly suited to that final scenario, so it was quite a good swap. (The mini just wasn't painted yet.)
 
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Dwight Sullivan
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Willottica wrote:
Yes, Dwight, that's what we're discussing. However, it's unclear from the RAW.

Is that part just a subordinate clause?

The next sentence is not subordinate, and seems to suggest that it's as soon as the quest is fulfilled (not contingent upon a return). Will it change things? Not often, but sometimes.

In fact, my wife's first character fulfilled her goal just after doing the second scenario in a triple-link. Our reading was that we could do the third without her, or all go back to Gloomhaven so she could retire. We went back to Gloomhaven, got blessings, leveled up, bought more items, met our new companion and went to finish the set. It sucked a little, but her new character actually proved perfectly suited to that final scenario, so it was quite a good swap. (The mini just wasn't painted yet.)

Sorry I was adding to what Michael typed. I think he laid it out pretty clear. Your character has to retire WHEN you go back to town and you can go back whenever you want.

Once you do go back you can still do other city stuff like donate before retiring.

A party can change its composition and size in the field as long as you are not creating a new character. OR the party can just decide not to return right away.
 
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michael ray
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Xaqery wrote:
Willottica wrote:
Yes, Dwight, that's what we're discussing. However, it's unclear from the RAW.

Is that part just a subordinate clause?

The next sentence is not subordinate, and seems to suggest that it's as soon as the quest is fulfilled (not contingent upon a return). Will it change things? Not often, but sometimes.

In fact, my wife's first character fulfilled her goal just after doing the second scenario in a triple-link. Our reading was that we could do the third without her, or all go back to Gloomhaven so she could retire. We went back to Gloomhaven, got blessings, leveled up, bought more items, met our new companion and went to finish the set. It sucked a little, but her new character actually proved perfectly suited to that final scenario, so it was quite a good swap. (The mini just wasn't painted yet.)

Sorry I was adding to what Michael typed. I think he laid it out pretty clear. Your character has to retire WHEN you go back to town and you can go back whenever you want.

Once you do go back you can still do other city stuff like donate before retiring.

A party can change its composition and size in the field as long as you are not creating a new character. OR the party can just decide not to return right away.


The bone of contention isn't about when it has to retire. It's about if you can still do scenarios between completing your personal quest and retiring, because of the wording of the second half of the sentence that we've been nerd fighting over.
but he or she cannot play any new scenarios using a character with a fulfilled personal quest.
 
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Chris Willott
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squegeeboo wrote:
the wording of the second half of the sentence that we've been nerd fighting over.

Nerd fights are the best fights. The pen is mightier than the sword!
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Darren Nakamura
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I take that to have the implicit "Now that the party is in Gloomhaven and a character is about to announce his or her retirement," he or she cannot play any new scenarios using a character with a fulfilled personal quest.

But yeah, this could be interpreted either way.
 
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Chris Sauro
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Willottica wrote:
I'd be interested if you have seen an official clarification. (I'm assuming no, because you didn't mention it earlier, but would welcome a reference if you had!)
I had, but I didn't have time to re-find it when I made my earlier post.

But, here, take a direct quote from Isaac:

Cephalofair wrote:
After any scenario (completed personal quest or no), you have the choice to do another scenario or go back to Gloomhaven. If you do another scenario, you can avoid the road event if you are redoing the same scenario or doing a linked scenario, or you will do a road event if you are moving on to an unlinked scenario.

If you return to Gloomhaven and you have a completed personal quest, then you must retire. These two paragraphs are complete separate ideas, so try not to conflate them. I honestly can't figure out exactly what you all are disagreeing about, but hopefully this clear things up.
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Chris Willott
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Thank you, I appreciate it. I failed in my own search attempts. Isaac has spoken (somewhat confusingly), and I think he said you can keep doing scenarios until you go back to Gloomhaven.
 
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Scott Wheelock
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Tulsatom wrote:
What do we do with the road card we played if we failed the first scenario?


According to this thread, you may have to retire?
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