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Subject: Modifying Adventure Levels rss

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Frank Johnson
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On p. 27 in the rulebook, it talks about modifying adventure levels, and I am little bit confused about how to interpret it. There's a table noting that if you play an adventure and a higher adventure level, the starting dragonfire level is modified .

Adventure Level 2 -> Dragonfire level 1
Adventure Level 3 -> Dragonfire level 2
Adventure Level 4 -> Dragonfire level 3
Adventure Level 5 -> Dragonfire level 0*

So, is the same additional Dragonfire increase occurring no matter the difference between the original adventure level and your party's adventure level? For example, I have a party of four level four characters. I choose to play an adventure that's original level 2. We would then up the Dragonfire level to 3 to start because we are playing it at adventure level 4. The same thing would then occur if we were playing an adventure that's originally level 3, correct?

Secondly, the * indicates special rules for the dungeon crawl and then specifically says it can also be used for that scenario, but then does not explain what to do otherwise. What if my level 5 party wants to do Waste of An Ancient Empire?

 
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Frank Johnson
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What would make more intuitive sense to me is that you add a dragonfire level for each level your party is above the adventure. But I guess that doesn't scale as well? It just seems weird imagining a case were you beat a level 3 adventure and then level up. Is your power now so much greater that you add a whopping three dragonfire levels if you were to play the same adventure again?
 
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Greg
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Guy Somebody wrote:
What would make more intuitive sense to me is that you add a dragonfire level for each level your party is above the adventure. But I guess that doesn't scale as well? It just seems weird imagining a case were you beat a level 3 adventure and then level up. Is your power now so much greater that you add a whopping three dragonfire levels if you were to play the same adventure again?


I agree, it seems incredibly weird doesn't it. Have always thought the same as you, but I believe this is how it works.
 
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Conventional Wisdom is that you find the new level and follow the new rules. Example: Raising "Bodyguards" (normally level 1) to level 2, you would look up the DF level for a level 2 adventure, find "1" and add that DF level to the adventure.

However, a recent conversation makes me doubt that conventional wisdom and I'm trying to get it clarified.

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Michael Kindt Dalzen
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I’ve had questions about the Level scaling rules. They seem fine if you’re raising an Adventure from Level 1, but if the Adventure is another Level the scaling doesn’t always make sense to me.
 
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David Carroll
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I am mostly following this so I can see if there is any ruling.

But just to double-check, I assume these rules are mandatory, is that right? My first reading of 'you can replay any of them at a higher Adventure Levels' is that you don't have to. Maybe you can play them at their original level instead (still getting the original level reward as well, of course).

Reading a couple of threads it seems that isn't the case, but is it ever said anywhere?
 
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Michael Kindt Dalzen
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I’ve been meaning to make a long post on this topic for a while, but been busy. Here’s my basic concern—I think the modification should be based on the number of levels increased, not just matched to the destination level. The current system works fine when you’re starting with Level 1 Adventures, but some funky stuff can happen if the Adventures are not Level 1 to begin with.

Quick example:

Say there are 3 Level 1 Adventures: A, B, and C.

A=DF-1
B=DF 0
C=DF+1

When you raise these up to Level 2 with the current rules, you end up with:

A2=DF 0 (1-1)
B2=DF 1 (1+0)
C2=DF 2 (1+1)

All good so far. That same balance progresses in a regular fashion from Level 2 to 3 to 4.

A/A2/A3/A4=DF -1/0/1/2
B/B2/B3/B4=DF 0/1/2/3
C/C2/C3/C4=DF 1/2/3/4

But now lets say we start with 3 Level 2 Adventures: X, Y, and Z.

Coincidentally, they have the same DF values as A, B, and C at Level 2.

X=DF 0
Y=DF 1
Z=DF 2

But now let’s boost all our Adventures up to Level 3, A, B, C, X, Y, and Z.

A3=DF 1 (2-1)
B3=DF 2 (2+0)
C3=DF 3 (2+1)

X3=DF 2 (2+0)
Y3=DF 3 (2+1)
Z3=DF 4 (2+2)

When raising these Adventures to Level 3, suddenly X, Y, and Z jump an extra Dragonfire level. Because you start with the Dragonfire level of 2 and then modify by the Adventure’s Dragonfire Level. They all had the same Dragonfire Level at Level 2, but suddenly there’s an extra point tacked on to X, Y, and Z when they are increased in Level vs A, B, and C which started at Level 1.

If the modifier was equal to the number of Levels increased, you would see a smooth progression rather than a jump for some Adventures, depending on which Level they started at.
 
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Steve Beeman
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You've overthought it.
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Greg
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Is it not possible to get some official ruling on this? Seems like most games I follow on BGG get comments from the designers quite often. Don't hear much from Catalyst.

Simply put, is it by design that a level 3 mission played by a level 4 party should start at DF level 3 in exactly the same way a level 1 mission played by the same group would be?
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Gregolution wrote:
Is it not possible to get some official ruling on this? Seems like most games I follow on BGG get comments from the designers quite often. Don't hear much from Catalyst.

Simply put, is it by design that a level 3 mission played by a level 4 party should start at DF level 3 in exactly the same way a level 1 mission played by the same group would be?


Jay often responds on the weekend. Give it a few days.
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Jay Schneider
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Hi All,

Apologies, for the delay. As BCZ noted, it sometimes takes a couple of days.

Reviewing the bottom of page 27, I see how there's confusion. I'll make sure it's annotated for a rewrite in future printings and maybe even an update to the FAQ.

Let's get to how it works:
1) If your Party Level (Avg Level of characters/# of characters)is a higher level than the level listed on the Adventure Card increase the starting Dragonfire level by the difference.

1a) There is a special case if you are Level 5 & the adventure is base 1st level where you bring in 3rd level obstacles, play at Dragonfire Level 0 and use a 4th Scene.

2) After you do this then apply and adjustments for the # of players.
3) Then apply any adjustments for options

From the FAQ:
http://dragonfirethegame.com/download/

MODIFYING ADVENTURE LENGTHS (P. 27)
Q: I’ve played The Wastes of Ancient Empire at Adventure Level
1 and now I want to play it at Adventure Level 2. The Adventure
itself says it is played at Dragonfire level –1, while the table on page
27 of the Dragonfire Rulebook says to play it at Dragonfire level 1 if
you’re playing it at Adventure Level 2. Which is correct?
A: Both are applied. You start with Dragonfire level 1 as indicated
on the Additional Modifications table on page 27, but you
still apply any Dragonfire level modifiers from the Adventure. In
this case, it means you would play The Wastes of Ancient Empire at
Dragonfire level 0; i.e., a standard game where there are no Dragonfire
cards in the discard but right at the start of the game you
reveal a Dragonfire card and apply its effects (leaving the card on
the top of the Dragonfire Deck). As soon as your party can play The
Wastes of Ancient Empire at Adventure Level 3, then you’d start the
game at Dragonfire level 1 (i.e., starting with Dragonfire level 2 as
indicated on the table, but still applying the –1 from the Adventure).
And so on

Hope that helps,

Jay Schneider
Designer
D&D: Dragonfire
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Geeborg wrote:
Let's get to how it works:
1) If your Party Level (Avg Level of characters/# of characters)is a higher level than the level listed on the adventure increase the Dragonfire Count by 1.


Adventurers are all level 4.
They are playing a printed level 2 adventure.
Does this mean the DF level is boosted +2 for that delta?

Should the quote be "by the difference" and not "by 1"?
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Jay Schneider
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Hi BCZ,

Yes you are correct - increase the starting Dragonfire by the Delta. +2 in your question.

-Jay
(Edited to be correct in the above reply.)
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Michael Kindt Dalzen
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Geeborg wrote:
Hi BCZ,

Yes you are correct - increase the starting Dragonfire by the Delta. +2 in your question.

-Jay
(Edited to be correct in the above reply.)


This is what I assumed was intended, but not the way the rules are written.

Thanks for the clarification.
 
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Michael Kindt Dalzen
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SteoanK wrote:
You've overthought it.


Apparently not.
 
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Greg
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Fantastic! The difference makes so much more sense!

Thanks for an official reply. And please make more content so I can buy it.
 
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Keith Jones
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Gregolution wrote:
Fantastic! The difference makes so much more sense!

Thanks for an official reply. And please make more content so I can buy it.

A search of dragonfire on Coolstuffinc.com indicates a new release planned for each of the next 3 months. That's a good start. I hope they release a box for me to put all the stuff in! The base box is great, but it gets very tight once you start sleeving cards.
 
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keithjones wrote:
Gregolution wrote:
Fantastic! The difference makes so much more sense!

Thanks for an official reply. And please make more content so I can buy it.

A search of dragonfire on Coolstuffinc.com indicates a new release planned for each of the next 3 months. That's a good start. I hope they release a box for me to put all the stuff in! The base box is great, but it gets very tight once you start sleeving cards.


Given the packaging decisions so far, I doubt your hopes will be realized.
 
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Dave
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So if we reach level 5 and haven’t yet beaten Slaadi Plague, do we simply add 1 to the Dragonfire Level and play it as a Level 5 adventure (including level 5 magic items awarded)?
 
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lSweetJusticel wrote:
So if we reach level 5 and haven’t yet beaten Slaadi Plague, do we simply add 1 to the Dragonfire Level and play it as a Level 5 adventure (including level 5 magic items awarded)?


That would seem to be the case.
 
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Michael Convento
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Is this about correct? There are a couple XP gains I wasn't too sure about, specifically for the Portcullis is Breached, Terror in the Catacombs and Slaadi Plague.

Note. All Dragonfire values based on a 2 player setup.


Dungeon Crawl
Adventure Level | Dragonfire Level | XP/Scene | XP for Completion
1 | -2 | 1 | 2
2 | -1 | 1 | 2
3 | 0 | 1 | 2
4 | 1 | 2 | 1
5 | 0 | 2 | 2


The Portcullis is Breached
Adventure Level | Dragonfire Level | XP/Scene | XP for Completion
2 | -1 | 1 | 3
3 | 0 | 1 | 3
4 | 1 | 2 | 3?
5 | 2 | 2 | 3?


The Wastes of Ancient Empire
Adventure Level | Dragonfire Level | XP/Scene | XP for Completion
1 | -3 | 1 | 2
2 | -2 | 1 | 2
3 | -1 | 1 | 2
4 | 0 | 2 | 1
5 | 1 | 2 | 2

Bodyguards
Adventure Level | Dragonfire Level | XP/Scene | XP for Completion
2 | -2 | 1 | 2
3 | -1 | 1 | 2
4 | 0 | 2 | 1
5 | 1 | 2 | 2

Unholy Presence (See additional rules on Adventure Card)
Adventure Level | Dragonfire Level | XP/Scene | XP for Completion
2 | -2 | 1 | 2
3 | -2 | 1 | 2
4 | -2 | 2 | 1
5 | -2 | 2 | 2

Terror in the Catacombs
Adventure Level | Dragonfire Level | XP/Scene | XP for Completion
3 | -2 | 1 | 3
4 | -1 | 1? | 3?
5 | 0 | 1? | 3?

Slaadi Plague
Adventure Level | Dragonfire Level | XP/Scene | XP for Completion
4 | -2 | 1 | 2
5 | -1 | 2? | 2?
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R Reynolds
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Another question: Does the 2p and 3p gold value you get from substitution for a market card (if player level > adventure level) also consider the delta?

For example: You would get exchange of 3 gold worth of cards on a base adventure level 1 with a 2p level 3 party. Would you get 2 gold or 3 gold worth of cards on a base adventure level 2 with a 2p level 3 party?
 
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Skeletaur wrote:
Another question: Does the 2p and 3p gold value you get from substitution for a market card (if player level > adventure level) also consider the delta?

For example: You would get exchange of 3 gold worth of cards on a base adventure level 1 with a 2p level 3 party. Would you get 2 gold or 3 gold worth of cards on a base adventure level 2 with a 2p level 3 party?


We swap in based on the average level of the party.
2g at level 2
3g at level 3
4g at level 4
5g at level 5

There is no level 6 in the core box, so level 5 is 100xp or more.

We *always* do this swap in, even if the party is 'on level' with the printed adventure level.
 
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R Reynolds
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Quote:
We *always* do this swap in, even if the party is 'on level' with the printed adventure level.


Interesting and I like it! Seems though that the rule is not intended to be used unless you are modifying adventure levels (as per the main header in the manual that it is under).

I might adopt that rule anyway as well because this game is tough 2p!

Thanks for the reply.
 
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Skeletaur wrote:
Quote:
We *always* do this swap in, even if the party is 'on level' with the printed adventure level.


Interesting and I like it! Seems though that the rule is not intended to be used unless you are modifying adventure levels (as per the main header in the manual that it is under).

I might adopt that rule anyway as well because this game is tough 2p!

Thanks for the reply.


This was later clarified by the BGG Forum Rep.
Swap-ins are always done if the Adventure level is 2 or greater.
And, the Adventure level will always be 2 or greater once the average Party level is 2 (or greater).
 
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