Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
44 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Mythic Battles: Pantheon» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Is Bellerophon overpowered? Counters to Bellerophon? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Gabriele De Luca
Italy
flag msg tools
Hello,
don't you think that Bellerophon is really overpowered?
I played last night with him against a friend of mine
and we both agreed he actually is.

He costs five Recruitments points, okay, but:
He is a Flying unit with Monster Slayer, Bolster and Guard.
He has five activation cards.

He comes with three Art of War cards! (Evade is guaranteed)

Offence 7
Defence 8
Range 0
Movement 3 (three!) (Omphaloi, I am coming!)
7 life points

Pegasus' Grace (permanent power):
“If Bellerophon is the target of an attack, the effective offence is modified by -2.”
Improving an already good defence.

Friend of the Muses (active power):
"At the end of Bellerophon's activation, search your deck for a Bellerophon activation card and add it to your hand."
He is always available and Art of war cards are spared (no search manoeuvre for his activation cards).

He is (almost?) better than a god!


How to counter him?
I have God Pledge plus Heroes of the Trojan War, so I am thinking to Paris...


Any opinion and/or advice is welcome.
Thank you.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Beiter
United States
Tonawanda
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I do agree that even though he costs 5, that set of abilities makes him very hard to counter.
Compare him to the other 5 cost units and he is still head and shoulders above them.

You need to draft very specifically to counter him. Either the perfect units that can long range kill him or somehow lock him down, which is nearly impossible.

Or you need a team that grabs omphalos faster or that can kill his god before pegasus boy wins the game. Again, unlikely.

I'm not a fan of him because he completely forces foes to either gang up on him or to reconfigure their entire draft/play strategy around him.

When he hits the table, the fun gets sucked out of the game for us.
He makes it a very dull predictable match.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Cleverley
United Kingdom
Birmingham
West Midlands
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I found that planting Eurytos on a rock gives him sufficient range to attack virtually anywhere on the board. His basic attack is 5, on a rock it's lifted to 7 (+1 for being on the rock and +1 for Archer). If he doesn't move, you can spend an AOW card to fire at Bellerophon twice with no chance of evading. Even if it's reduced to 5 dice, Bellerophon is still going to take a hit or three! If you couple Eurytos with a ranged troop too (or Atalanta) that's a lot of dice and a lot of range you've got to down him.

I mean sure, Bellerophon could swiftly fly over and attack back but you gotta think then, that's activations being used to preserve himself rather than sweeping valuable Omphalos.


Other options could be to run the Python to the middle of the board. Sure, Bellerophon can move round but he's not claiming any Omphalos.

Or run Eurytion adjacient to Bellerophon and continuously taunt him. Again, all Bellerophon will be able to do is attack Eurytion every time he activates.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Strong
United States
Ocala
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also remember Mighty Throw is your friend. Bellerophon is almost always used as an omphalus claiming mule. Being a hero, it only requires 1 blank to throw him forcing him to drop it. A lot of people get so caught up using him to chase the crystal! lol... a couple mighty throws really whittles down his effectiveness in that regard... even if you don’t manage to slap him with a wound. Adding in someone like a 1rp unit like Aegisthus can work well also! Using his poison dagger, he gets three extra dice in his attack. Yes two go away, but still enough to do a few wounds, bog him down with that and some mighty throws and he’s wasting activations trying to regain omphalus, or AoW to evade. We thought he was overpowered too at first, but have been able to beat him and his team numerous times

Some of the brilliance of this game is there is always a counter. Finding the right ones is half the fun. But we have yet to find and declare a unit that is too overpowering
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Samuel Delerme
France
paris
Unspecified
flag msg tools
I'm not even sure 2 of Aegisthus's dice go away since he has the power Assassin (ignore the effects of ennemy talents or powers that modify or restrict Aegisthus's walk, run or attack)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Strong
United States
Ocala
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
delerme wrote:
I'm not even sure 2 of Aegisthus's dice go away since he has the power Assassin (ignore the effects of ennemy talents or powers that modify or restrict Aegisthus's walk, run or attack)


Excellent catch!! Completely forgot about that when I was writing but you are correct sir! I knew there was a bit more too it that i was forgetting. lol... mighty throw and Aegisthus can be a nightmare for him.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Beiter
United States
Tonawanda
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cruehitman wrote:
delerme wrote:
I'm not even sure 2 of Aegisthus's dice go away since he has the power Assassin (ignore the effects of ennemy talents or powers that modify or restrict Aegisthus's walk, run or attack)


Excellent catch!! Completely forgot about that when I was writing but you are correct sir! I knew there was a bit more too it that i was forgetting. lol... mighty throw and Aegisthus can be a nightmare for him.


Last time I played, I tried to use Aegisthus against him for all those reasons. The game ended the round he finally reached him! The speed and mobility differences vastly favor belerophon. And as noted, he can evade him.
This counter sounds good in theory, but fly boy is more than equipped to shrug that threat off.
Belerophon can swoop on and secure 2 omphalos without even blinking before most units can even get in range.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brendan Dolan
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
MajaiofDreams wrote:

Or you need a team that grabs omphalos faster or that can kill his god before pegasus boy wins the game. Again, unlikely.

This comment is the key to me countering Bellerophon. First realize that you are not countering Bellerophon, you're countering his God. I counter Bellerophon by attacking the activation cards of his god.


The basis to my anti-bellerophon strategy is remembering that you have to take 4 complex absorb actions. Most gods only have 4 in their deck - so looking at a worst case situation of: 5 activation card god (like Ares) + Bellerophon.

Ares spends 1 activation to deploy and 1 to walk to where an Omphalos is, Leaving him a max of 3 absorbs in the first deck cycle if he does nothing else (including retaliate). Assume Bellerophon uses his 5 activations in the first round to hand deliver 2 omphalos to Ares.

So, if I do nothing, Ares will have absorbed 3 omphalos in the first deck cycle, then likely with the first turn after a deck refresh.

To buy me time, I like the following units:
Eurytion - taunt (free) burns an activation card for the god

Orpheus - a rapture token burns an activation (for Half the AoW cost of a petrify token).

Marsyas - don't taunt Bellerophon, taunt his god. Any turn where the god has to take a walk action is an activation where he can't make a complex absorb action.

Polyphemus - (love this guy against a Bellerophon omphalos collection strategy). Mighty throw the god away from the Omphalos (haha, you have to walk back, no absorbs this turn). And as a bonus, he has gem collector, pull a few omphalos away from the pile, more walking.

Any other unit with gem collector, mighty throw or petrify.

The point is, if you can make their god maste even 1 or 2 activations on abilities movement or retaliation, that pushes them deeper into the second deck cycle (when you will have a chance for more distractions).

Then, once you realize they won't want to waste activations - throw every unit you can at their god, daring them to retaliate and waste an activation.

This isn't a counter draft, but I think Helios is a great god against a Bellerophon speed strategy. Helios can pick off some activation cards, can move their god around and has gem collector. A combination of helios and the Colchidian Dragon (eliminates guard and block talents) can really pin down a character and turn things into a street fight.

If I were to set a team up against this I would use:
Helios
Colchadian Dragon
Eurytion (for god taunting)
Centaurs (guard and speed for omphalos collecting)
4rp based on what I feel like, top considerations being:
- Achilles
- polyphemus
- python (I agree with the above post, he's great for this situation)
- Perseus (petrify)
- Diomedes (you're going to stab their god anyways, make it count)
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Beiter
United States
Tonawanda
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think you gave some very insightful points.

Is this only in 2 player or do you do this in multiplayer?

My table plays multiplayer always and if one player goes all in on that god lock down strategy, player 3 or players 3 and 4 will capitalize on it and try and sneak in their own quick win.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brendan Dolan
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
MajaiofDreams wrote:
I think you gave some very insightful points.

Is this only in 2 player or do you do this in multiplayer?

My table plays multiplayer always and if one player goes all in on that god lock down strategy, player 3 or players 3 and 4 will capitalize on it and try and sneak in their own quick win.

My 3 & 4 player strategies aren't refined. Honesty I've been watching the forums for tips and tricks for 3 & 4 players. (The one I like best is changing rules to use less omphalos, with gods dropping omphalos when they die).

Bump python to the top of the list seems like the obvious first step.

Maybe a higher focus on petrify with a crowded map?

Maybe Autolycus to just steal the claimed omphalos and give them the run around? (Only 2 rp, so you don't sell out against 1 player)

A team of: Helios, Python, Autolycus, Rhadamanyhud might work....?

I'm curious to hear more 3p / 4p perspectives on this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gabriele De Luca
Italy
flag msg tools
Thank you for your suggestions and your kindness!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daren Commons
msg tools
Hold up, isn't there a carrying limit of one Omphalos per unit?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorge Castro
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Durnhands wrote:
Hold up, isn't there a carrying limit of one Omphalos per unit?


There is definitely a limit of one Omphalos or Omphalos like items/token(eyeball, rock...) per unit.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brendan Dolan
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Durnhands wrote:
Hold up, isn't there a carrying limit of one Omphalos per unit?

Yes. But not against dumping them all in one area. Bellerophon can use his 5 activations to:
1) deploy
2) fly to omphalos and claim
3) deliver to gods area
4) fly to omphalos
5) deliver to god.

Leaving all your other units to carry 1 omphalos to wherever you god is standing.

Edit: assuming the god uses a walk / run to a location that also has an omphalos.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Willem Verheij
msg tools
mbmb
Colicoid dragon and Graeae is what killed him in the only game hes been used in so far.

The Colicoid dragon means Bellerophon has no talents when in the same area, and the Graeae means quite some forced art of war card waste which means less chance to evade. If they do use all art of war cards for that they cripple themselves elsewhere.

In this game Campe was also there, Bellerophon nearly killed Campe before being taken out.

Colicoid dragon was no joke against him, as a guard it can force Bellerophon to attack him first and the Colicoid dragon retaliates before he can attack. If he does damage, the attacker loses his attack.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Jullie
United States
Richardson
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, don't forget to retaliate. This is often overlooked. You can't evade from a retaliation strike. This makes characters with initiative pretty solid counters to Bellerophon.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Beiter
United States
Tonawanda
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dignan wrote:
Also, don't forget to retaliate. This is often overlooked. You can't evade from a retaliation strike. This makes characters with initiative pretty solid counters to Bellerophon.


Assuming he chooses to attack, and that is rare.
He is way too busy grabbing omphalos and flying safely away to bother engaging in combat.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Jullie
United States
Richardson
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MajaiofDreams wrote:
Dignan wrote:
Also, don't forget to retaliate. This is often overlooked. You can't evade from a retaliation strike. This makes characters with initiative pretty solid counters to Bellerophon.


Assuming he chooses to attack, and that is rare.
He is way too busy grabbing omphalos and flying safely away to bother engaging in combat.


If he's only doing that, then why don't you draft the Python?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aditya C
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Dignan wrote:
MajaiofDreams wrote:
Dignan wrote:
Also, don't forget to retaliate. This is often overlooked. You can't evade from a retaliation strike. This makes characters with initiative pretty solid counters to Bellerophon.


Assuming he chooses to attack, and that is rare.
He is way too busy grabbing omphalos and flying safely away to bother engaging in combat.


If he's only doing that, then why don't you draft the Python?


Assuming Python is in the draft.

The problem with some of these high impact units regardless is that, even though they can be countered, they become such a dominant part of the game and they become the only thing the game is about and it kind of makes it a bit lame for repeated plays.
2 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Beiter
United States
Tonawanda
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Caibre wrote:
Dignan wrote:
MajaiofDreams wrote:
Dignan wrote:
Also, don't forget to retaliate. This is often overlooked. You can't evade from a retaliation strike. This makes characters with initiative pretty solid counters to Bellerophon.


Assuming he chooses to attack, and that is rare.
He is way too busy grabbing omphalos and flying safely away to bother engaging in combat.


If he's only doing that, then why don't you draft the Python?


Assuming Python is in the draft.

The problem with some of these high impact units regardless is that, even though they can be countered, they become such a dominant part of the game and they become the only thing the game is about and it kind of makes it a bit lame for repeated plays.


EXACTLY!

It is not fun for my players to play such a specific counter draft.

What if a player wants to pursue a different strategy? They came to the table wanting to try units X Y and Z when suddenly Belerophon is drafted. Now if the player wants any chance of winning, they have to draft completely differently than intended.

Belerophon is a bit hard core for a casual skirmish.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brendan Dolan
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
MajaiofDreams wrote:

EXACTLY!

It is not fun for my players to play such a specific counter draft.

What if a player wants to pursue a different strategy? They came to the table wanting to try units X Y and Z when suddenly Belerophon is drafted. Now if the player wants any chance of winning, they have to draft completely differently than intended.

Belerophon is a bit hard core for a casual skirmish.

Ummm.... yes it is.
A few games ago a opponent picked an Athena / Bellerophon combo against me. He was so smug as I picked Medusa & Echidna - even to the point of pointing out Bellerophons monster slayer ability (I enhanced my fun with an "oh-no!!! I thought he was just a fast flier" hoping he'd take the bait and be recklesd).

So, when Bellerophon overextended to get an omphalos and I activated Medusa, petrified him, tourment attacked him, 2nd activate Echidna, tourment attack him again (with poision for good measure) - poor Bellerophon was shredded and couldn't do anything except un petrify.

With Bellerophon dead before any of my team suffered a wound, you better believe I enjoyed carving up the rest of his team who were utterly un-prepated for life without their 5 point hero.

If you want a casual skirmish, just take out all the 5pt characters.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Beiter
United States
Tonawanda
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Obsidiox wrote:
MajaiofDreams wrote:

EXACTLY!

It is not fun for my players to play such a specific counter draft.

What if a player wants to pursue a different strategy? They came to the table wanting to try units X Y and Z when suddenly Belerophon is drafted. Now if the player wants any chance of winning, they have to draft completely differently than intended.

Belerophon is a bit hard core for a casual skirmish.

Ummm.... yes it is.
A few games ago a opponent picked an Athena / Bellerophon combo against me. He was so smug as I picked Medusa & Echidna - even to the point of pointing out Bellerophons monster slayer ability (I enhanced my fun with an "oh-no!!! I thought he was just a fast flier" hoping he'd take the bait and be recklesd).

So, when Bellerophon overextended to get an omphalos and I activated Medusa, petrified him, tourment attacked him, 2nd activate Echidna, tourment attack him again (with poision for good measure) - poor Bellerophon was shredded and couldn't do anything except un petrify.

With Bellerophon dead before any of my team suffered a wound, you better believe I enjoyed carving up the rest of his team who were utterly un-prepated for life without their 5 point hero.

If you want a casual skirmish, just take out all the 5pt characters.


Not going to lie, that sounds fun. Medusas speed can help her reach him.
Did he just not expect her to reach him?

And this was 2 player right?

He definitely seems way easier to counter in 1 vs. 1.
But as I mentioned in multiplayer, if one player counters him, the other players will run in for the sneaky win.

Perhaps your suggestion of removal would make sense in multiplayer. I wouldn't say ALL 5 cost, as the others haven't given problems yet.
But no Belerophon in multiplayer may help a lot.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Jullie
United States
Richardson
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Caibre wrote:
Dignan wrote:
MajaiofDreams wrote:
Dignan wrote:
Also, don't forget to retaliate. This is often overlooked. You can't evade from a retaliation strike. This makes characters with initiative pretty solid counters to Bellerophon.


Assuming he chooses to attack, and that is rare.
He is way too busy grabbing omphalos and flying safely away to bother engaging in combat.


If he's only doing that, then why don't you draft the Python?


Assuming Python is in the draft.

The problem with some of these high impact units regardless is that, even though they can be countered, they become such a dominant part of the game and they become the only thing the game is about and it kind of makes it a bit lame for repeated plays.


Is this really becoming a problem? I mean, really? Most of this thread sounds like some serious theory crafting and straw manning. Have you just been playing match after match where your opponent is always drafting him? Your opponent just simply wants to always play the same strategy and figures over and over?

If that is the case, I'm not sure what you want the game to do. You are playing an opponent who never wants to bring any variety to the table. The game has plenty of counter units for this strategy. If your opponent keeps playing the same strategy, you need to draft against it. Do you want each army to be equally effective regardless of what they are up against or do you want the draft to be an important part of the game? Because the "problem" you are putting forth in this thread is more of an opponent problem than a game problem.

Is Bellerophon really good? Yeah. Is veteran Heracles really good? Yeah. Is Manticore really good? Yeah. I feel like there is a lot of power in the 5 cost units. I don't think the units are perfectly balanced. But they are relatively close. And there are simple fixes aside from banning them. Just make them cost one more RP to draft. We do this all the time with Heroscape. You can tweak things relatively easily to balance gameplay on your table.

But all that said, this discussion seems a little knee jerk to me.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brendan Dolan
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
MajaiofDreams wrote:
Obsidiox wrote:

A few games ago a opponent picked an Athena / Bellerophon combo against me. He was so smug as I picked Medusa & Echidna - even to the point of pointing out Bellerophons monster slayer ability (I enhanced my fun with an "oh-no!!! I thought he was just a fast flier" hoping he'd take the bait and be recklesd).

So, when Bellerophon overextended to get an omphalos and I activated Medusa, petrified him, tourment attacked him, 2nd activate Echidna, tourment attack him again (with poision for good measure) - poor Bellerophon was shredded and couldn't do anything except un petrify.

With Bellerophon dead before any of my team suffered a wound, you better believe I enjoyed carving up the rest of his team who were utterly un-prepated for life without their 5 point hero.

If you want a casual skirmish, just take out all the 5pt characters.


Not going to lie, that sounds fun. Medusas speed can help her reach him.
Did he just not expect her to reach him?

And this was 2 player right?

He definitely seems way easier to counter in 1 vs. 1.
But as I mentioned in multiplayer, if one player counters him, the other players will run in for the sneaky win.

Perhaps your suggestion of removal would make sense in multiplayer. I wouldn't say ALL 5 cost, as the others haven't given problems yet.
But no Belerophon in multiplayer may help a lot.

It was 2 player, but he did a few things that highlight how to counter Bellerophon in 3 or 4 player.

1) I think he overestimated the threat of his monster slayer talent - thinking my monsters would avoid him.

2)He saw Medusa, but underestimated the impact of petrify. He did not think I'd be willing to spend 2 AoW cards to petrify 1 unit that he would immedatly un-petrify next turn. I didn't have many AoW in my deck.

3) He didn't fully account for the compounded loss of Pegasus' Grace defense (due to petrify) and tourment. Basically a 3 point swing on attack/defense that was compounded ×3 (2 attacks & echidna's poision)

What this tells me about Bellerophon:
1) petrify helps a lot
2) hold back some AoW cards to hit him hard when he comes forward for an Omphalos
3) Be bold spending those AoW cards when you have the chance - yes it's costly, but the payoff of taking a 5rp unit away is worth it.

Good units for this "one big gamble" strategy are: Perseus, Medusa, Echidna, Nemean Lion & maybe Arachne (if you really want to gamble and try to web him).
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Beiter
United States
Tonawanda
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Good tips. If I were Belerophon I would not have let medusa anywhere near me.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.