Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
28 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Rising Sun» Forums » Strategy

Subject: First turn - First two players ally - Marshal then Recruit - Counters? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bone White
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
So it become very apparent very quickly that the most optimal move at the start of the game is:

1st and 2nd player in the turn order ally.
1st player plays Marshal.
1st and 2nd player build strongholds.
Everyone moves.
2nd player plays Recruit.
1st and 2nd player summon 3 figures each.
Everyone else trains 1.

I know the direct answer is "well they won't always have those mandates available". According to a hypergeometric calculator, the first player will have Marshal 66.67% of the time, and the second player will have Recruit 66.67% of the time (assuming recruit wasn't used by the first player)

Well, Lotus is 3rd in the honor track at the start, so will often be the 2nd player in the game (dependant on player count) so can mitigate a lot of problems with not having the right tile.

In fact, Lotus is even more of a beast because they can bury the second Marshal (if they draw it) and announce a train action.

This now happens in any game I play with people who have played at least one game, and the winner has always been one of these two starting players. Having more figures on both the map and the shrines just snowballs into later rounds.

The question is - does anyone have a reasonable way to counter this?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig B
Australia
Mount Hawthorn
Western Australia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Recruit.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Lustenberger
United States
Nashua
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
The power of customization!
badge
Lelouch vi Britannia commands you... All of you... To play more games!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm unsure if you're playing base game only, but there are so many variables that affect the game between training cards, clan powers, etc that the play you describe wouldn't be as nearly strong as you think it is in the long term.

In fact, those two would have to compete with another eventually since winning only goes to one player. I've seen plenty of games where the two most powerful players fight another and dwindle each others resources while someone behind swoops in at the end since they are untouched.

Also, next season or even next mandate phase another set of allies could do something similar. Or everyone else can team up on them. Or you can outplay them with the bidding.

You're thinking far too narrow scope here, imho.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Casey Smith
Switzerland
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If you are only worried about number of men, then betray. Both the first and second clan will be reduced to 3 and then you’ll be up to four units.

Train, and you can get Oni of skulls putting you in equal footing immediately.

Harvest, deny the first two clans the benefits of harvest by giving them only one coin.

Marshall, and you know that they probably won’t build more strongholds that season, exception being Lotus.

Recruit again, and you know they can’t recruit again, with the exception of lotus.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bobby Sanmiguel
United States
LAWRENCEVILLE
Georgia
flag msg tools
But then player 1+2 are getting last pick of upgrades/monsters (assuming someone plays the train mandate) which is not an insignificant trade off.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Casey Smith
Switzerland
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
bobb_o wrote:
But then player 1+2 are getting last pick of upgrades/monsters (assuming someone plays the train mandate) which is not an insignificant trade off.


I see that as a benefit.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jesse Marzel
Israel
flag msg tools
Avatar
I'm not sure what needs to be countered here, really. Is it stronger than any other combination of mandates? Would Marshal + Harvest be any worse? Wouldn't a Train -> Recruit be just as much of an issue?

The first and second player will always take turns, I suspect; taken as a whole, as part of a larger game, I don't think there's an issue here.

If someone else marshaled -> recruited, you have a good chance to position yourself for a good harvest, or betrayal, or train before them both and gain a good upgrade.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mr. Octavius
Canada
Chilliwack
BC
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Two other players Betray, and replace units from the first two players. Now players 1 and 2 have 3 units, and the two players that played betray have 5, reversing the situation.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jesse Marzel
Israel
flag msg tools
Avatar
Maebon wrote:
Two other players Betray, and replace units from the first two players. Now players 1 and 2 have 3 units, and the two players that played betray have 5, reversing the situation.


Well, not if they recruited Shinto and sent them to worship. At which point, the other players are poised to harvest...

I honestly don't see the issue here.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christian K
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That does seem like a very strong start to me, good observation.

I think it is a fair point that harvest is also really strong at the start (or usually also anytime later).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ice Ice Hedge fund
Thailand
Bangkok
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Maebon wrote:
Two other players Betray, and replace units from the first two players. Now players 1 and 2 have 3 units, and the two players that played betray have 5, reversing the situation.


Sorry I'm not folling the numbers here.

Allied player 1 and player 2 have 3 bushis, player 3 and 4 have 1 bushi (This is from the first Recruit mandate)

Player 3 plays Betray targeting the alliance, he's up to 3 bushis and player 1 and 2 are down to 2 bushis each.


Player 4 plays Betray targeting the alliance, he's up to 3 bushis and player 1 and 2 are down to 1 bushis each.

Is this correct?


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mr. Octavius
Canada
Chilliwack
BC
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
playl3oii wrote:
Maebon wrote:
Two other players Betray, and replace units from the first two players. Now players 1 and 2 have 3 units, and the two players that played betray have 5, reversing the situation.


Sorry I'm not folling the numbers here.

Allied player 1 and player 2 have 3 bushis, player 3 and 4 have 1 bushi (This is from the first Recruit mandate)

Player 3 plays Betray targeting the alliance, he's up to 3 bushis and player 1 and 2 are down to 2 bushis each.


Player 4 plays Betray targeting the alliance, he's up to 3 bushis and player 1 and 2 are down to 1 bushis each.

Is this correct?




Yes. I was just including the 2 units players start the game with in my count.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jasmeer Sangha
Canada
Brampton
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
playl3oii wrote:
Maebon wrote:
Two other players Betray, and replace units from the first two players. Now players 1 and 2 have 3 units, and the two players that played betray have 5, reversing the situation.


Sorry I'm not folling the numbers here.

Allied player 1 and player 2 have 3 bushis, player 3 and 4 have 1 bushi (This is from the first Recruit mandate)

Player 3 plays Betray targeting the alliance, he's up to 3 bushis and player 1 and 2 are down to 2 bushis each.


Player 4 plays Betray targeting the alliance, he's up to 3 bushis and player 1 and 2 are down to 1 bushis each.

Is this correct?




Start with bushi and daimyo.
Players 1/2 gain 3 units from marshal (pay for new strong hold) then Recruit (get 2 +1 units on board) (= 5 each)
all others gain 1 unit (= 3 each)

Betray x1 Players 1/2 go to 4 each, Player 3 gains 2
Betray x2 Players 1/2 go to 3 each, Player 4 gains 2
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
meles meles
Poland
flag msg tools
It's not just how many bushis a player is up or down when betraying, it's also where. Suppose one of the allied players builds the fortress in his starting province. After the 2 mandates they have: starting daimyo(1), starting bushi(2), bushi from starting fortress (3), bushi from new fortress (4), alliance bonus bushi (5). The other ally might do the same. If two other players betray now, it becomes 3 force in ally's province vs 2 for other players. So allies still have advantage in this case, except for less gold. You'd need to win Take Hostage and have higher honor, and you still end up paying reparations.

Either way when you betray your extra bushis tend to be spread out, and spread out forces are often easy to eliminate. Allies are not likely to simultaneously recruit in the same province because they would be negating the benefit of the alliance.

If you have lots of ronin and summoning points (coins), spread out force may be what you want.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mr. Octavius
Canada
Chilliwack
BC
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
b0rsuk wrote:
It's not just how many bushis a player is up or down when betraying, it's also where. Suppose one of the allied players builds the fortress in his starting province. After the 2 mandates they have: starting daimyo(1), starting bushi(2), bushi from starting fortress (3), bushi from new fortress (4), alliance bonus bushi (5). The other ally might do the same. If two other players betray now, it becomes 3 force in ally's province vs 2 for other players. So allies still have advantage in this case, except for less gold. You'd need to win Take Hostage and have higher honor, and you still end up paying reparations.

Either way when you betray your extra bushis tend to be spread out, and spread out forces are often easy to eliminate. Allies are not likely to simultaneously recruit in the same province because they would be negating the benefit of the alliance.

If you have lots of ronin and summoning points (coins), spread out force may be what you want.


Until a Marshall mandate is played and you can move those units.

If one player wants to pile all of their force into a single territory let them have it. 1 war province tile a season is not going to win them the game.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alarian Von Lienstein
France
flag msg tools
Bone White wrote:
So it become very apparent very quickly that the most optimal move at the start of the game is:

1st and 2nd player in the turn order ally.
1st player plays Marshal.
1st and 2nd player build strongholds.
Everyone moves.
2nd player plays Recruit.
1st and 2nd player summon 3 figures each.
Everyone else trains 1.

I know the direct answer is "well they won't always have those mandates available". According to a hypergeometric calculator, the first player will have Marshal 66.67% of the time, and the second player will have Recruit 66.67% of the time (assuming recruit wasn't used by the first player)

Well, Lotus is 3rd in the honor track at the start, so will often be the 2nd player in the game (dependant on player count) so can mitigate a lot of problems with not having the right tile.

In fact, Lotus is even more of a beast because they can bury the second Marshal (if they draw it) and announce a train action.



Exactly what we did in our first game (me as Koi and my ally as Lotus). we swarmed the temple. Other 2 players never really recovered from this blow - especially the 3rd player.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
E F
msg tools
I think it would depend on what that team chose to do. First off during the recruit phase, I would probably leave the Kami alone because they will likely overthrow my one piece. I would imagine Kami is the goal of those players, id let the other playera lose out to them in contention. During the marshall, I would try to move my guys elsewhere to gain the majority in two spots. For the following moves, I see train, betrayal and maybe harvest being strong choices. If train was the first pick after the combo that would give that team last pick of cards. Betrayal is normally strong choice amd if you feel that combo gave them too much an advantage betrayal can trim them back a bit. Harvest depends on your map layout and whether you were able to have majority in 2 places that benefit you. If possible, if your alliance could marshall and recruit just like they did, it should be strong too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sarnix Last Name
msg tools
Reading through the answers I come to the conclusion there's not a good way to counter this strategy. And the kami phases increase the advantage of the first 2 players. Especially when you play with the kami unbound. The other players can only do some damage control. Still, players #3+ are still behind for each season.

So, do you guys make house rules to prevent the alliance of player #1 and #2 from marshalling and recruiting?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zoltán Dudás
Hungary
flag msg tools
IamSarnix wrote:
Reading through the answers I come to the conclusion there's not a good way to counter this strategy. And the kami phases increase the advantage of the first 2 players. Especially when you play with the kami unbound. The other players can only do some damage control. Still, players #3+ are still behind for each season.

So, do you guys make house rules to prevent the alliance of player #1 and #2 from marshalling and recruiting?



Unless it really becomes a default meta in your group and clearly shows a higher winrate for them, there is nothing to house rule.

There is no direct counter. Thats the advantage of going first. My conclusion is that there are multiple things which help you negate it. Its up to you, as a group, if and how many you use.

Negotiate -> try to offer a more compelling alliance
Marshall + recruit bushi-heavy -> no kami advantage for them. Its fair game for everyone. Plust others can deny Harvests
Marshall + recruit shinto-heavy -> no board presence. Others can capitalize on harvests. Counter balancing kami advantage (e.g getting 2 roning from kami = 2 ronin from harvest)
They get last pick on Train
The other players can combo mandates just as well
Betray is a nice counter
They benefit both equally, so they have to compete against each other sooner or later. In the end only one can win
Game ramps-up each season (Cards, Monster get stronger, give higher benefits, province tokens are worth more on later season) So any first season advantage can be turned around more easily.
On different player counts the first two players each season are different. So its not like they can repeat it.

Plenty reasons for me not to consider this an issue.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kaganishu Khan
Germany
flag msg tools
mbmb
IamSarnix wrote:
Reading through the answers I come to the conclusion there's not a good way to counter this strategy. And the kami phases increase the advantage of the first 2 players. Especially when you play with the kami unbound. The other players can only do some damage control. Still, players #3+ are still behind for each season.

So, do you guys make house rules to prevent the alliance of player #1 and #2 from marshalling and recruiting?


There are actually multiple valid answers here. You seem to look for a "hard counter" that takes away all benefits of this, making it near-unusable. Which, if it existed, would be horrible design.

But it seems your group has not figured out one important fact about this strategy, especially with Koi+Lotus Alliance: It makes no sense for Lotus to go along with that plan, rather than ally with another clan, preferably the one after him. Its a suboptimal play. Your ally is NOT your friend. You do NOT try and benefit them more than absolutely necessary. And for Lotus to play along with this makes no sense, because once Koi gave you your second fortress, and you recruit, they are in a stronger board state than you!
You used your clan ability (possibly) to benefit both of you equally, they have higher honor, and they get to recruit second-to-last before you, allowing them to grab whatever Kami they want and, through higher Honor, tie-break you on it.

Meanwhile, you are stuck in the worst starting province bordering on the second-worst province (Nagato + Kansai), at lower honor than your ally, and you are set up perfectly for a betrayal at the end of the season on their part with little to no repercussions, especially in a 6p game.

Yes, as Koi or Sun you will always ally with Lotus for this plan. Or anyone else, for that matter. But the ONLY clan that I think this would be a benefit for is Turtle, and they are usually not next to Koi in most games to pull off this move.

So, you dont need house rules, you need to educate your players that Lotus in this case is being kingmaker against their own interest.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
james herbby
msg tools
Koi's clan ability is only during war.

Lotus's is only during mandates.

More players weaken Lotus as they get less use out of their ability.

One of their biggest strength is high honor. Yeah, they may run the early game, but that is one of their benefits.

Honestly haven't run into too many problems with them because then they get denied harvest and train cards or get betrayed. Koi with no money has a useless clan power and outside of prepping for war lotus's ability isn't useful in the actual battles.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M V
msg tools
mbmb
As a Koi fan (i use them each time i can) i'd say that best opening is Marshall+Marshall with lotus lending 1 coin (Lotus income + skill + starting honour is outrageous -.-).
It has a light counter that is Train.

But even if they go Marshall Recruit, on season 1 Train is Always the answer since you get moneys and you can buy the priest doggo.

Consider also that its not koi you have to fear in this case but Lotus.

Lotus is possibly the best clan around in any player count maybe on par only with Turtle.

But there is no way that a good koi player will ally turn 1 with turtle and give them Marshall.

P.S: i do not agree that Lotus interest is not allying with Koi.
Koi is the weakest clan between the possible 3 that will play a mandate before kami phase on turn 1.
Lotus is much stronger than Koi so not only its in his interest to ally but it should also pay something to do that (or lend a coin at least).
If Sun is in play then things might change.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kaganishu Khan
Germany
flag msg tools
mbmb
VonDodo wrote:
As a Koi fan (i use them each time i can) i'd say that best opening is Marshall+Marshall with lotus lending 1 coin (Lotus income + skill + starting honour is outrageous -.-).
It has a light counter that is Train.

But even if they go Marshall Recruit, on season 1 Train is Always the answer since you get moneys and you can buy the priest doggo.

Consider also that its not koi you have to fear in this case but Lotus.

Lotus is possibly the best clan around in any player count maybe on par only with Turtle.

But there is no way that a good koi player will ally turn 1 with turtle and give them Marshall.

P.S: i do not agree that Lotus interest is not allying with Koi.
Koi is the weakest clan between the possible 3 that will play a mandate before kami phase on turn 1.
Lotus is much stronger than Koi so not only its in his interest to ally but it should also pay something to do that (or lend a coin at least).
If Sun is in play then things might change.


How is Lotus stronger than Koi when doing the mentioned opening? Koi has higher honor, better starting province, better clan ability (because Lotus' ability benefits both equally in this plan) for themselves, more mandates over the course of the game at certain player numbers and slightly better seating order for any Train that other Clans will play.

Only in terms of income does Lotus have a slight advantage.

Lotus big advantage is their desirability for alliances, and high income giving them flexibility.

Also, the above-mentioned plan is crap if you have a Fox at the table anyway, because you can probably not stop them from starting their seppuku machine unless Lotus can bury a train, and Fox gets unlucky on the 2nd.

As Lotus, I think alliance has a lot to do with what strategy you are going for, and who will be the strongest contender. Koi is a significant early-game threat, so I dont want to benefit them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
Canada
flag msg tools
mb
Double betray from 2 players can counter the extra bushi generated.

But if player 5 and 6 combo it again... HAH!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Well thanks for this thread guys.

Three games in with the core set, and in games 2 and 3 Koi/Lotus got a massive opening advantage from this opening. Typically both players are making a 2/1 or 1/2 split on Bushi/Shinto, and preagreeing what they want to split.

Yes, it is a better deal for Koi than Lotus, but it's good enough for Lotus that its better than most deals anyone else can offer.

We're not about to house rule it or declare it broken, but right now its proving hard to dissuade the opening players from hitting this combo, short of direct bribes to Lotus.

What I'm gathering is that the best counter is for Turtle to point out to Lotus that it's better to be allied with them, as Lotus will get more out of the deal than his partner that way, but I'm not 100% sure that's true. Sure the honour situation will be favourable, but the real edge of Koi-Lotus (or Sun-Lotus I guess) is being able to make that recruit (or harvest) before anyone else gets any board presence. Strike a deal wih Tortoise, and then Koi will already have marshalled, getting an extra stronghold and spread presence along with his chosen ally, and the Lotus-Turtle combo becomes diminished.

Better to gain a large advantage over 3-4 players and a marginal disadvantage to 1 player, rather than gaining a marginal advantage over all players. The latter means less chance of winning the game overall.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.