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Subject: Should parents be allowed to send their children to gay conversion therapy? rss

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Trey Chambers
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Staggering numbers.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/80-000-teens-will-un...

Should parents be allowed to parent how they see fit aligned with their values outside of physical abuse? Or if society has accepted homosexuality, is this just a form of child abuse?
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Acceptance or non-acceptance aside, doesn't so-called gay conversion therapy entirely consist of abuse?
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Shampoo4you wrote:

Staggering numbers.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/80-000-teens-will-un...

Should parents be allowed to parent how they see fit aligned with their values outside of physical abuse? Or if society has accepted homosexuality, is this just a form of child abuse?


That's disgusting. What is the matter with people?
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Andre
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Until the actual cause of homosexuality is determine definitively, and it hasn't, I would say that this is abuse (especially the physical aspects mentioned in the article). If the one undergoing "therapy" does not consent to it (and is not made aware of what it entails by some neutral third party source), I would disallow it. But getting to this point is a long stretch probably, since parents usually have powers (granted to them by the government) until the child becomes a legal adult.
 
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Andy Leighton
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whac3 wrote:
Acceptance or non-acceptance aside, doesn't so-called gay conversion therapy entirely consist of abuse?


Absolutely and loads of psychological and counseling organisations in the UK and US (and elsewhere) agree. In the UK even the Church of England thinks it (conversion therapy) is fundamentally wrong and wants the government to ban it.
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Andre
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There are only three possibilities regarding homosexuality;

a) It is genetic
b) It is the result of environmental life forces.
c) A combo of the above.

Conversion therapy assumes it is b, and fails to recongize that a and c involve a component that cannot be altered thru their "therapy".

 
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abadolato01 wrote:
There are only three possibilities regarding homosexuality;

a) It is genetic
b) It is the result of environmental life forces.
c) A combo of the above.

Conversion therapy assumes it is b, and fails to recongize that a and c involve a component that cannot be altered thru their "therapy".



The bigger issue is the belief that:

d) It is a problem.

It isn't! So the causes are irrelevant!
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It's abuse 'tolerated' in the name of religious 'freedom'.

Imagine the fuss if we had 'christian' deprogramming conversion therapy.
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Scott Russell
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abadolato01 wrote:
There are only three possibilities regarding homosexuality;

a) It is genetic
b) It is the result of environmental life forces.
c) A combo of the above.

Conversion therapy assumes it is b, and fails to recongize that a and c involve a component that cannot be altered thru their "therapy".



If it's b) or c), then couldn't "therapy" change orientation?

We currently don't enough to effectively administer it, but it raises an interesting question if we get to the point where it can be done effectively.
 
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Dean
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Short answer: No.

Long Answer: Fuck NO!
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Andre
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qzhdad wrote:
abadolato01 wrote:
There are only three possibilities regarding homosexuality;

a) It is genetic
b) It is the result of environmental life forces.
c) A combo of the above.

Conversion therapy assumes it is b, and fails to recongize that a and c involve a component that cannot be altered thru their "therapy".



If it's b) or c), then couldn't "therapy" change orientation?

We currently don't enough to effectively administer it, but it raises an interesting question if we get to the point where it can be done effectively.


I agree with dkearns it should not even be viewed as a "problem" requiring "therapy", but, instituting "therapy" when the cause of something is not known, is a recipe for disaster. This is not like taking antibiotics, to prevent infection, laughs.
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Scott Russell
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Sorry, if I wasn't clear, today's conversion "therapy" certainly isn't.

Whether orientation is a "problem" or not depends very much on the family. Being disowned is certainly a traumatic event. You can argue that it shouldn't be a problem, but not that it isn't ever a problem.

So my question is, if a procedure that is effective at setting gender orientation arises, can parents then decide to make their kids straight (or gay)?

As parents we make decisions every day that cause irreversible changes in our kids. Most aren't nearly as dramatic or clear cut, but they are being made. Is this one more that should be left up to the parents?
(Also, I am making assumption that the procedure only works on minors. If it can be done after age of majority, there is much less reason to allow parents to force the issue.)
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Andre
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qzhdad wrote:
Sorry, if I wasn't clear, today's conversion "therapy" certainly isn't.

Whether orientation is a "problem" or not depends very much on the family. Being disowned is certainly a traumatic event. You can argue that it shouldn't be a problem, but not that it isn't ever a problem.

So my question is, if a procedure that is effective at setting gender orientation arises, can parents then decide to make their kids straight (or gay)?

As parents we make decisions every day that cause irreversible changes in our kids. Most aren't nearly as dramatic or clear cut, but they are being made. Is this one more that should be left up to the parents?
(Also, I am making assumption that the procedure only works on minors. If it can be done after age of majority, there is much less reason to allow parents to force the issue.)


It shouldn't depend on the family, this is an issue of the family, not being able to accept who the child really is. That is THEIR issue, not the childs. More education is required, to show them that their "therapy" stems from miguidance. That misguidance, my guess, is usually religious in nature, i.e., their child being gay conflicts with their deeply held religious beliefs. Although I am sure that does not describe every case, it is likely the "norm" for why "therapy" is undertaken.
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Daniel Kearns
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qzhdad wrote:
Whether orientation is a "problem" or not depends very much on the family. Being disowned is certainly a traumatic event. You can argue that it shouldn't be a problem, but not that it isn't ever a problem.


Maybe the family should go to "conversion therapy" then?
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I can see much of it being complete bullshit and based more in religious belief than science. Is there anything that is being lumped in that is much more vanilla?

I feel like the best way to approach this is to go after these groups and practitioners rather than go after misguided parents.
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Andre
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From https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/conversion-thera...


The Controversy Surrounding Conversion Therapy

Most mental health professionals agree that ethical therapy encourages self-exploration, self-acceptance, and increased insight. Indeed, one role of good therapists is to help people eliminate unhealthy beliefs about themselves and others. Conversion therapy, though, typically encourages people to change or conceal who they are, convincing them that their sexual orientation or gender expression is a source of shame and danger. Every mainstream therapeutic body accepts that homosexuality is not a mental health issue, but conversion therapy treats it as such. Conversion therapy is especially problematic when parents force it upon their children. Forced conversion therapy may lead to anxiety, suicidal thoughts, and a sense of profound rejection.

Therapists who endorse conversion therapy argue that it does not have to be damaging. Some conversion therapy advocates point to non-violent conversion therapy as a harmless personal choice. But many therapists, professional organizations, and people who have experienced conversion therapy point to the psychological damage that results from the effort to change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity. Jeremy Schwartz, LCSW in Brooklyn, New York, argues that conversion therapy does not have to be physically damaging to be harmful. “All of the major mental health professions have denounced conversion therapy because it is not only ineffective, but also harmful. Sometimes the harm is physical, as in the case of electric shocks or nausea-inducing drugs. More often, the harm is psychological. Conversion therapy makes empty promises. When the treatment does not work, clients often experience guilt and shame. Blame is placed on the individual, who may be led to believe they did not try hard enough. The practice of conversion therapy also carries a social cost, as it perpetuates the myths that sexual orientation is a choice or that it can be changed, both of which are not true,” Schwartz said.
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Matthew Schoell
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It’s abusive harm so no. That supersedes all arguments that parents are empowered as guardians of their child.

The world is going to need to have a conversation about what rights children have in terms of identity development even against their parents wishes.
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Scott Russell
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dkearns wrote:
qzhdad wrote:
Whether orientation is a "problem" or not depends very much on the family. Being disowned is certainly a traumatic event. You can argue that it shouldn't be a problem, but not that it isn't ever a problem.


Maybe the family should go to "conversion therapy" then?


Good luck with that.

The family changing would be optimal, but doesn't seem likely. And, the negative results are going to be felt mostly by the child.

 
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Andy Leighton
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Kumitedad wrote:
From the article

Quote:
It also estimates 20,000 LGBTQ youth currently between the ages of 13 and 17 will receive conversion therapy from a licensed health care professional before they reach 18, and approximately 57,000 will be subjected to the controversial practice from a religious or spiritual adviser.


Easy way to cut down on some of these "therapies". Start yanking the licenses from the health care professionals that perform them.

The problem is a lot of the "therapies" are done by people who are not members of a proper organisation. Some are religious and some are just non-professional. Which is why conversion therapy should be made illegal so that these people can be prosecuted.
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qzhdad wrote:
So my question is, if a procedure that is effective at setting gender orientation arises, can parents then decide to make their kids straight (or gay)?


Should a parent be able to order their children to undergo a sex change operation whether the child wants it or not? Should a parent be able to chain their child in the basement to prevent them from immoral behavior? Should a parent be able to have their children undergo breast enhancement or reduction? Should a parent be able to have their children's eyes changed to look more/less Asian?

Sexual orientation is something for the child to decide at appropriate moments of their life. A parent that attempts to fix this is engaging in abuse. Period.

Quote:
As parents we make decisions every day that cause irreversible changes in our kids.


Can you name one that requires such a choice as active and intrusive as therapy to arrive at a specific outcome like "make my kid not gay?" I really can't.
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perfalbion wrote:


Quote:
As parents we make decisions every day that cause irreversible changes in our kids. Most aren't nearly as dramatic or clear cut, but they are being made.


Can you name one that requires such a choice as active and intrusive as therapy to arrive at a specific outcome like "make my kid not gay?" I really can't.


I put back in bold the part you omitted from my quote.

Raising a child in such a manner (even through good intentions) so the child doesn't have self-confidence would be one that would be as major, IMO. Similarly, raising a kid that doesn't understand no means no could have equally dire consequences.

Linking food to comfort is one that is often done that leads to a lifetime of battling weight. Putting too much (IMO) emphasis on appearance can lead to lots of financial and emotional expenses later in life.

My point is that parents make decisions that will affect their kids for the rest of their lives already. My hypothetical example would be one that is more clear cut for cause and effect, but we already make decisions that have as much effect, the "cause" is just mushier.

How do you feel about deaf parents opposed to Cochlear implants for their deaf children? Or, conversely, parents that decide to have them implanted against the child's will? That's certainly a decision that carries lifelong implications.

I honestly don't know what I would've done if I had a gay child and a way to change them. Honestly, for special needs children, I can see an argument for converting them to being gay, if it were possible, as a birth control measure.
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perfalbion wrote:
qzhdad wrote:
So my question is, if a procedure that is effective at setting gender orientation arises, can parents then decide to make their kids straight (or gay)?


Should a parent be able to order their children to undergo a sex change operation whether the child wants it or not? Should a parent be able to chain their child in the basement to prevent them from immoral behavior? Should a parent be able to have their children undergo breast enhancement or reduction? Should a parent be able to have their children's eyes changed to look more/less Asian?

Sexual orientation is something for the child to decide at appropriate moments of their life. A parent that attempts to fix this is engaging in abuse. Period.

Quote:
As parents we make decisions every day that cause irreversible changes in our kids.


Can you name one that requires such a choice as active and intrusive as therapy to arrive at a specific outcome like "make my kid not gay?" I really can't.


I'd argue that medical decisions for their children, especially with chronic or serious disease, can rise to that. Acute lymphoblastic leukemia treatment for example, is going to be very very rough on the child, is active, is intrusive, and may involve not letting the child decide on their bodily autonomy.

Treating ALL with it's significantly good cure rate though is non-controversially in the best interests of the child.

With gay conversion therapy, it's partly about being active and intrusive, but also about it not being in the best interests of the child.
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Should a parent be allowed to have their child circumsized?
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How does one define it? Do you have to actually say in class "being gay is bad"?
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qzhdad wrote:
Raising a child in such a manner (even through good intentions) so the child doesn't have self-confidence would be one that would be as major, IMO.


This is very rarely a conscious choice on the part of the parent. It's the type of behavior you see from abusive (and often sexually abusive) parents. Similarly, most of your other examples are unlikely to be a "Hey, let's do this on purpose!" type of behavior.

Quote:
My point is that parents make decisions that will affect their kids for the rest of their lives already. My hypothetical example would be one that is more clear cut for cause and effect, but we already make decisions that have as much effect, the "cause" is just mushier.


Well, sure. And I won't pretend that I've been a perfect parent. But I can honestly say that I've never made a conscious choice that I knew would damage my child in some way. When parents make such choices, the state often steps in to protect the child, and rightfully so. I'd very much like to see conversion therapy banned completely, and I definitely would like to see parents prevented from placing their minor children in it. There is not only no scientific support for its efficacy, there's evidence that it can be incredibly damaging. If it were a drug, it either would not be approved, would have its uses dramatically restricted, or would be pulled from the market.

Quote:
Honestly, for special needs children, I can see an argument for converting them to being gay, if it were possible, as a birth control measure.


I hope you don't mean this seriously. What a horrifying statement.
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