Doug K
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I love both Band of Brothers and LnLT - both are in my top 5 games. Although I prefer LnLT, there are some aspects of BoB that I wanted to try incorporating into LnLT. For instance, I think BoB's Final Op Fire makes more sense, and I like how Morale is slowly recovered over time when the threat is removed. I also like the Rout Phase from BoB. I have not playtested these enough to make sure they are totally balanced, but I'd welcome your thoughts.

Final Op Fire: if an enemy moves into an adjacent hex of a spent/ops complete unit or stack, that stack can still fire Final Op Fire. Treat this exactly as Op Fire, except in addition to the -1 firepower penalty for regular Op Fire, the unit suffers an additional -2 for each "moved, low crawl, fired, stealth move, assault move, or ops complete" token on it. Every time the unit uses Final Op Fire, place another Fired token on it.

Routing:
(1) Whenever a unit moves adjacent to the hex of a Shaken unit, the Shaken unit instantly rolls a Rout Check (exactly the same as a Rally Attempt - 2D6 v. Morale with any leadership/terrain bonus), even before any final Op Fire. If the unit fails, it must move for its total movement value toward the safest side of the map (use judgment), while making no moves that make it closer to enemies. If it cannot do so (i.e. the move brings it closer to an enemy), it is destroyed.
(2)If a Shaken unit is in open terrain within 5 hexes of an enemy in Good Order and with LoS, it must also roll a Rout Check.
(3)If a Shaken unit is inside a hex where Melee is about to occur, before the Melee, roll a Rout Check and eliminate any Shaken units (even if their side ends up winning the Melee, the Shaken units that failed the MC have scattered away in fear at the mere prospect of hand-to-hand combat.)


Self-Rallying by Non-Self Rallying Units:
(Brief explanation - I have seen people post here and on other forums who are bothered by the fact that a Shaken unit can stay Shaken all game. This could happen if the only Leader is far away, eliminated, etc. Realistically, even the poorest quality squad will eventually get its act together once the threat is gone, so perhaps even units without self-rally should have some way to SR.)

The rule:When a unit is shaken, place a "Fully Suppressed" token from BoB on the unit (if you don't have BoB, use anything with two distinguishable sides - even a penny.) At each Rally Phase, flip all "Fully Suppressed" tokens to the "Suppressed" side (heads pennies to tails side), and remove any "Suppressed" tokens (tails pennies). If a Shaken, non-SR unit has no token (or penny) on it, it can roll to self rally exactly as if it had the SR ability. This way, even non-SR units have a chance to rally on their own, after two turns to gather their wits and calm down a little. To be clear, the "Fully Suppressed"/"Suppressed" tokens have no effect other than to act as a timer before the unit can attempt to SR. I think this solves the concern without "nerfing" the SR-inherent units too much, but some may disagree.

Looking forward to reading any thoughts.

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Kev.
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Hey there!
While you can play your game any way you like, the rules and scenarios are designed for the rules as written. These changes would likely unbalance the scenarios a lot.

You point about recovery eventually is true. But probably not in the ten -
twenty minutes of real time this game or scenarios represents.

Nicely worded rules, let us all know how they play out.

Oh and I think there was a move to offer some sort of similar rule about final opp fire. That was shot down...ha..get it shot down. It involved a die roll. I think this game works fine as is for foot and AFV's. Whereas BoB is fine for foot but the mech stuff is pretty messed up.
 
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Doug K
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hipshot wrote:
Hey there!
While you can play your game any way you like, the rules and scenarios are designed for the rules as written. These changes would likely unbalance the scenarios a lot.

You point about recovery eventually is true. But probably not in the ten -
twenty minutes of real time this game or scenarios represents.

Nicely worded rules, let us all know how they play out.

Oh and I think there was a move to offer some sort of similar rule about final opp fire. That was shot down...ha..get it shot down. It involved a die roll. I think this game works fine as is for foot and AFV's. Whereas BoB is fine for foot but the mech stuff is pretty messed up.


Thanks for the response! Your first point is very true. These are not just small changes; they are pretty deep mechanical changes. I'll have to see how much of an effect they have. The addition of Final Op Fire is the only one that would give one side an advantage (defender over attacker), so maybe I'll scrap that one if I find it to be too powerful. Routing I think will be fine as it makes things more difficult for both sides, but I can see that being a potential problem too. However, all units being able to eventually SR I think would have a fairly even effect on both sides and will happen fairly irregularly, so that's the one I'm least worried about.

Don't get me wrong, I agree LnLT "works fine as is" - in fact, way better than fine. But I think most wargamers are rules tinkerers at heart, and I can't help but tweak. I will see how the changes go.

One thing I will nitpick you on though - I've never been in combat (thank God), but most veterans will say 10 to 20 minutes is an eternity in a firefight. For instance, each turn in BoB is two minutes - and even the shoddiest conscript unit in BoB will rally from Fully Suppressed to Good Order in two turns (four minutes) if left alone. That mechanic is based on years of research by Mr. Krohn and I think it's pretty accurate.
 
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Norman Smith
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Some modern rules shy away from giving a 'real time' equivalent that a turn is representing, preferring instead to say that time is a sort of elastic concept and I think that is a useful practical solution for designers trying to squeeze behaviours and results and movement and fire rates and the issuing / acceptance of orders into a specific time frame of say two minutes.

In BoB, it doesn't seem realistic (to me anyway) to have troops recover from full suppression to fighting fit in 4 minutes, but it does feel right game wise to have them recover over two turns, which of course is exactly the same thing.

I share Kev's reservations about Final Fire, from the perspective that a few hundred scenarios have been designed without it (it is a powerful sub-routine). Lock 'n Load currently have a beta set of rules out in which they are testing a sort of final fire. Basically the unit rolls a D6 and if gets a 6 (or something like that) then it gets to final fire. This is about an 18% success rate, which tends to suggest that the company really felt that they had to dampen down the impact, no doubt to preserve the legacy scenarios.

I used to ponder the point quite a bit, having come from ASL and AST and I came to a conclusion that in Lock 'n Load, it is just representing swarming by superior numbers and firepower. The counter is to do better tactics, have crossfires and hold some units back from firing, so they can counter some of the swarming efforts, or at least make it costly.

There are weaknesses to the rule without doubt, but an inexhaustible final fire capacity is just another weakness, but at the other end of the same scale. Neither seems a best fit.

With all of that aside, I like mash-ups of systems, there is probably a significant number of tactical fans that don't feel they have 100% found the game that ticks all the boxes for them. Have fun with the play testing. The good thing about using the physical bits from the Lock 'n Load is that you do get nice counters and game boards.
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Kev.
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Norm, I think they killed that final fire thing thank goodness.

Also gents as for the research which was based upon Depuy [sp]? I think a lot of his work and stats have been debunked I recall reading somewhere. So the entire premise of BoB is predicated on false or un workable data.

While eternity is something that the troops feel these games are dealing in such short spans of time LNL - 2-5 minutes and usually no more than 4-7 turns that a squad that just took 50% casualties, got bombed, grenaded and machine gunned is not going to pop up and fight like a tiger.....UNLESS they are better quality troops. - like the Elite Paras who all get to Self Rally if melee'd when shaken. OR the Marines whose Morale goes UP when shaken. So I think the games make a really good effort to get that 'im hunkered down and not moving' mentality, even if I die. then along comes a leader -'you wanna live foreever - Get some damn fire on those bad guys now'... IF Depuy was right there is your morale/suppression/recover mechanic in spades.
 
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Doug K
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Thanks both for your well thought out answers. You have given me a lot to think about, especially with the final op fire. I will continue to play test. The thing with wargames is oftentimes whether the scenario is balanced or not, with two equally-matched players, whoever has the hot dice will make more of a difference than a slight (or even moderate) imbalance in the scenario, so I’m not super concerned. But I truly do appreciate your thoughts. Again, I don’t see much harm in adding the routing rule - there’s something truly satisfying about rushing a position in BoB only to have the demoralized enemy scatter without a fight. It seems like your concerns are mostly with the final op fire (and I think you may have won me over on that) as well as with my proposed rule for the time-delayed self rally (which may be a needless over-complication without much benefit).

I think when it comes down to it, what bothers me is the lack of any “intermediate” morale stage. The units are either fighting machines or shaken and just taking up space. What BoB captures so well is that intermediate state of morale where the defenders might lay down a withering wall of fire...or they might refuse the order and scatter. In LnL, when you approach a defender, you more or less know that he’s going to be a tough fight (good order) or worthless (shaken).
 
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John Brady
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normsmith wrote:


With all of that aside, I like mash-ups of systems, there is probably a significant number of tactical fans that don't feel they have 100% found the game that ticks all the boxes for them.


I've got a few house rules that I use, depending on the system. For LnL, the auto-elimination of shaken units in melee never sat well with me, as it made for some really gamey situations. I roll the dice, and let 'em inflict a casualty result on a 12. It adds a hint of jeopardy, and since I play mostly solo, it works for me.
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Norman Smith
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John, I think those sort of mods are so gentle that they do not interfere with the basic intended structure of the game, or scenario design, yet when they do happen, they help tell your story.

As house rules they are great because they are not officially adding chrome to a system.
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David Gray
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hipshot wrote:
Norm, I think they killed that final fire thing thank goodness.




I missed any announcement of the withdrawal of the beta rules.

I think the addition, as done by LnL, was a wise move and adds substantially to the believability of the system.
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