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Subject: TM on BGA! rss

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J A
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OMG! I just discovered that there's soon going to be an implementation of TM on Board Game Arena! The beta is due to be launched tomorrow. Coooooooool!
It'll be nice to be able to play online in real time!
See ya around BGA!
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Ryan Feathers
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I'm stoked by this as well. I love playing on BGA but there aren't as many games there that I love playing. I love that there will now be a good option for real time play. (Since the app doesn't work well for that).

I'm also really glad that the publisher grants all these various ways to play this great game. It's nice to have all the different options on how to play.

I'm Ranior there as well. Hope to see some of you online in the coming days. (I know what I'll be doing at times this weekend.)

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George Sprockitz
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woohoo...this is awesome news. I haven't played on BGA in a long time, but I'll be going back to get some live games in!!
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Per Glöde
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Does the implementation include the official Map balanced VP buff/nerf from the app/Wiki?
 
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Ryan Feathers
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gaaloechild wrote:
Does the implementation include the official Map balanced VP buff/nerf from the app/Wiki?


Yes, it does. The default is to include it. When creating a table, as an option you can instead play with 20vp for all factions.

At least that's what I saw in one of the comment threads over at BGA. Looks like the game is only in Beta testing to a select few members, so it may be a few more weeks before many of us get to play.

Which saddens me a bit as I was hoping to play some live games this weekend.
 
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George Sprockitz
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It looked like to get in the beta you just have to join a group. I joined the group last night, but can't check until after work to see if I can actually play.
 
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Ryan Feathers
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gmg159 wrote:
It looked like to get in the beta you just have to join a group. I joined the group last night, but can't check until after work to see if I can actually play.


Yeah I did that too--but it looks like they're only going to let premium members actually play games to start with, then will open up to others in the beta group, and then everyone.

I could be wrong though. I'll check more closely later.
 
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Flo P
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Spectacular news, thanks a lot for the heads up kiss

btw, I am called bluesheep there as well
 
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James Wolfpacker
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If you are looking for live games, I posted an official poll on what your preferences would be for a timer.
 
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Ryan Feathers
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Played about a half dozen games there this past weekend. Here's some quick thoughts.

It's great to be able to easily get live games. Snellman doesn't work for this, and the app doesn't really either currently. Once this is opened to everyone I imagine you'll typically be able to join and play a game in about two hours total or less. (4 players, less players will go even faster).

The current adaptation is fairly buggy, but they're addressing bug reports quickly. Mermaids towns in particular are causing all sorts of issues. Although there are just generally issues with towns even, as it doesn't seem to handle bridges and adding on to towns well yet. I believe the app also had many issues with this early on, and it makes sense to me. It has to be a nightmare to actually program these sorts of abilities.

One of the lamest things thus far is that the BGA adaptation uses the variant rule for faction selection--give each player a random board and let them pick what side. It's been confirmed they will offer the standard way and that will be the default, but for this early test they were using the variant.

They don't have the additional tiles--town tiles, bonus tile, or temple round tile. I'm not sure if they have plans to add them. I will likely submit a suggestion to them to at least add the town tiles. (I didn't realize how lame it is to be in a 4 player game and found a town late where there are virtually no options remaining.)


Overall though I'm pretty impressed and hopeful. The adaptation is pretty slick when it's working, and they seem dedicated to addressing the numerous remaining bugs quickly. Once it is running smoothly and open to everyone in a few weeks I think it will be a fantastic training ground for getting in live games.

Which does remind me of one other takeaway--it may be difficult for top level players to get in meaningful live games which isn't shocking. But over the last year I've managed to get up to about a 1250 rating and into D4 of the tournament. During that time I haven't felt like I've gotten massively better than beginning players since I'm constantly playing against better and better opponents on Snellman. But yeah...most of the players I played during this weekend have a lot to learn about the game. It may take quite awhile for some of the BGA players to start getting proficient with the game.
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J A
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Thx for the report Ranior! Can't wait!
It's good to hear that the BGA team are dedicated to ironing out bugs, and that they will be implementing the regular turn-based method for faction selection. This pre-game part of TM is half of all the fun, not unlike the drafting phase in Agricola!

Was the interface and design of the implementation attractive? When I checked there were no games underway so I wasn't able to get a peek...
 
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Hubert
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Played 3 games on there, including one with Ranior which I screwed up a sole win late for a tie. Haven't seen any snellman regulars there except for bicegoa & sprockitz, and I really don't enjoy beating up inexperienced players.

The interface is pretty decent, faction selection is now available and most bugs have been ironed out, still prefer the clean visual display of snellman though. The sole attraction of BGA is the live play- the game is still too vanilla for my liking. There are many turn-based games ongoing which you can watch to view the interface.
 
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Ryan Feathers
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Faction selection is now available. The bugs have largely been worked out--there still are occasional reports and things they are working on, but in just a week they've cleaned up a lot. Towns, area scoring, mermaids ability all seem to be functioning correctly now. Faction Selection works and they've updated power conversions so you can do them after your turn when you need to. (Previously you couldn't do conversions after taking an action). Overall it's pretty slick now and I'd imagine they'll open it to everyone soon.

I think the interface and design are pretty slick. In some ways I too prefer the bare bones display of snellman, but the BGA game does a good job of reflecting the physical game.

Unfortunately Hubert is also correct though--there's relatively few good players lurking around, and there are a lot of inexperienced to just outright bad players. (Including some moves which truly boggle my mind--for instance someone digging with 3 workers and then their next action spending 4 power for 2 workers. During both of those turns the one spade power action was available, so they needlessly just wasted a worker). Plenty of other head scratching decisions at times as well.

Eventually enough players will play enough to get into the good ratings and above and then you can restrict table access to players of a high enough skill level. Until then, expect lots of beginners.
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George Sprockitz
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Ranior wrote:

Unfortunately Hubert is also correct though--there's relatively few good players lurking around, and there are a lot of inexperienced to just outright bad players. (Including some moves which truly boggle my mind--for instance someone digging with 3 workers and then their next action spending 4 power for 2 workers. During both of those turns the one spade power action was available, so they needlessly just wasted a worker). Plenty of other head scratching decisions at times as well.


I've already accidentally dug with workers in at least 3 games when I meant to take the power action!
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Eric Greaves
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For those of you who have played a real time game on BGA, how long are the games taking?
 
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George Sprockitz
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rarnom wrote:
For those of you who have played a real time game on BGA, how long are the games taking?


I would say on average for my games about 60 minutes for 3 player and 90 minutes for 4 player. These are for my games, where I take about 15 minutes...since the average player is slower it is probably more like 75 and 100 minutes for 3/4 player.
 
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Ryan Feathers
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It's about 30 minutes per player right now. But that's because a lot of the players are still learning the rules of the game, the interface, and dealing with bugs (or suspected bugs, like players complaining about Nomads sandstorm not allowing them to cross a bridge, even though that is correct, etc.)

I suspect once you get a group of quicker players you could get to about 20 minutes per player. You can put in that you want a "fast" game there too which tightens the time controls and can help guarantee a faster game if you want to. (But will then possibly involve someone getting dropped for playing too slowly, which often ruins the fun of the game anyhow).

EDIT: I pretty much agree with George. I tend to take only about 15 minutes, but many new players hover closer to the 30 minute mark. Long term I'd expect things to settle down in tho about the 20 minutes per player mark.
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C TK
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Seems like beta is closed to new members, but if anyone is able to send an invite, please send me an invite to the group on BGA. Same username: CTKShadow
 
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C TK
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Hey, how does the implementation handle leech timing?

Eg, say I'm cultists and upgrade a temple to a sanctuary, to finish a town. Does my opponent make their leech decision before I pick my town and favour? Do you get to pick the town and favour in the order you choose (potentially relevant for cult steps)?
 
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Ryan Feathers
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I don't know for sure on some of those. The implementation certainly has people making leech decisions before you pick favor/town. I don't believe it offers a choice though in the order of the favor and town. (I'm also not sure it allows conversions between favor and town selection, but I also am not certain on that.)

It is these relatively complicated niche circumstances that the implementation is most likely to have wrong now. Mostly everything else works about how you'd expect it too.

 
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C TK
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Ranior wrote:
(I'm also not sure it allows conversions between favor and town selection, but I also am not certain on that.)



For the record, it shouldn't allow conversions mid-turn, so hopefully it doesn't. The relevance of favor/town timing is, say you're at 6 on earth and 9 on fire. You have no keys. You upgrade to a SA, taking earth 3 and completing a town, taking the 8vp cults town. You need to be able to take the favour first in order to cap earth and not fire, if that is the cult you want to cap. In other cases, you may want the town cult steps first.
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George Sprockitz
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CTKShadow wrote:
Ranior wrote:
(I'm also not sure it allows conversions between favor and town selection, but I also am not certain on that.)



For the record, it shouldn't allow conversions mid-turn, so hopefully it doesn't. The relevance of favor/town timing is, say you're at 6 on earth and 9 on fire. You have no keys. You upgrade to a SA, taking earth 3 and completing a town, taking the 8vp cults town. You need to be able to take the favour first in order to cap earth and not fire, if that is the cult you want to cap. In other cases, you may want the town cult steps first.


it probably would be a good idea for a couple 'experts' to play an elo off game to intentionally recreate some of these scenarios...because i'm also positive some of these unique circumstances will cause problems.
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Shoosh shoo
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Im excited to hear this as well, but it sucks for those of us who bought the app when it was released
 
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Steve
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gmg159 wrote:
Ranior wrote:

Unfortunately Hubert is also correct though--there's relatively few good players lurking around, and there are a lot of inexperienced to just outright bad players. (Including some moves which truly boggle my mind--for instance someone digging with 3 workers and then their next action spending 4 power for 2 workers. During both of those turns the one spade power action was available, so they needlessly just wasted a worker). Plenty of other head scratching decisions at times as well.


I've already accidentally dug with workers in at least 3 games when I meant to take the power action!

Yep. Happens in in-person games too. People make mistakes and, more often than not, realize it soon after. I guess Ranior has never made a mistake.

BGA should be great. Never really got how people find games on Snellman. Outside of the tournaments I've never seen an open game there. And while there's nothing wrong with Snellman's barebones graphics I like that BGA's implementation looks like the actual boardgame--something they always do a good job with.
 
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Ryan Feathers
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stevepop wrote:



Yep. Happens in in-person games too. People make mistakes and, more often than not, realize it soon after. I guess Ranior has never made a mistake.



Of course I have made mistakes from time to time. I simply provided one example of the sort of things I have been seeing. I promise you though the prevalence of "silly" moves on BGA is pretty high right now and indicative not just of occasional errors but generally poor play. I was just communicating that to others as I believe many of the snellman regulars are there partially to improve their game, and right now that's a real crapshoot on BGA as you often will wind up in games with players that are very inexperienced and will not provide much of a challenge to many players.


Quote:

BGA should be great. Never really got how people find games on Snellman. Outside of the tournaments I've never seen an open game there. And while there's nothing wrong with Snellman's barebones graphics I like that BGA's implementation looks like the actual boardgame--something they always do a good job with.


Snellman seems to have a real issue with relatively few players willing to create games for others to join, so there often aren't any open games. I just looked and there aren't any games open for me to join right now. (There may be a few that have rating locks for 1250+ and above that I couldn't see right now). Any new game that does pop up tends to get filled pretty quickly. It is pretty easy though to create a new game with whatever specifications you like and it will attract players--this is what I do most of the time when I'm looking for some more practice.



 
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