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Subject: Desecrating with no monsters in the pool rss

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Mihai Georgescu
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Is the King in Yellow allowed to desecrate a territory if he has no monsters to summon after the die roll?

Since the second part of the action cannot be performed, it seems to me like it wouldn't be allowed, but I've been wrong about this before (looking at you, Thousands Forms shake)
 
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Joey Larsen
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I am almost completely certain that you can still desecrate.
 
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Mike Beiter
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You can still desecrate.
Even with no eligible units in your pool.
 
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Niko
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Allbrotnar wrote:
Is the King in Yellow allowed to desecrate a territory if he has no monsters to summon after the die roll?

Since the second part of the action cannot be performed, it seems to me like it wouldn't be allowed, but I've been wrong about this before (looking at you, Thousands Forms shake)
I think the way it works is that you can still execute an ability even if you can't "place" a unit (e.g. Desecrate, Death from Below) but you have to be able to "replace" a unit (e.g. Devolve, Dreams) or you cannot use the ability.

I'm curious though what you were wrong about regarding Thousand Forms?

EDIT: reworded it to make it clear that you cannot voluntarily not place a unit AFAIK.
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Dave Mendiola
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Yes you can.
 
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Alex Hobbit
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Desecration is only limited by the amount of Markers you can put on the map, so 12.
 
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Adam Starks
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I don't think that's true. I can't find it in the OMR, but Sandy has ruled somewhere that if you run out of Desecration Markers, you can keep using Pennies or whatever.
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Alex Hobbit
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4th question.
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22013229#22013229

You can Omega it.
 
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Dr Gosburo Coffin
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Like Adam, I remember an earlier rule clarification in which Sandy said that Desecrations aren't limited by the number of markers. I'm fairly sure of this, because it stood out to me as the only case where the number of components didn't seem to matter.
I also remember that I was mildly surprised when I later read Sandy's reply in the thread that Alex linked to, because it contradicted what I had heard from him before (while claiming that this had always been his position).

So I guess that either Sandy did changed his stance on this matter after all, or the earlier ruling was made in error. Well, it doesn't matter much, since we have a clear ruling now.
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Mihai Georgescu
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So here's why it doesn't make sense to me that the action can be done with no monsters:

Desecration:
Quote:
Desecrate: (Action: Cost 2) If the King is in an Area with out a Desecration Token, roll 1 die and compare to your total units in the Area (including the King). On a roll equal or less than your unit total, place a Desecration Token in the Area. If you succeed or fail, place a Monster or Cultist with a cost of 2 or less in the Area.


From the Unique Actions section of the rulebook:
Quote:
A Unique Action is one that is only available to your particular Faction. It can be from your Unique Faction Ability, a Spellbook you have earned,or your Great Old One’s Special Ability. Sometimes a particular Unique Action has an additional requirement in order to perform it, even if it is available. For example, Great Cthulhu’s Faction cannot perform the Submerge Action (one of his Spellbooks), unless Great Cthulhu himself is in play.
Likewise, you cannot perform a Unique Action unless you are able to do all parts of it. For example, Yellow Sign cannot perform Zingaya to Eliminate an enemy Acolyte if there are no Undead in its Pool.


The Unique Action rule specifically states a situation involving the Yellow Sign and being out of units. I'm not saying you are all wrong, but I want to understand the reasoning behind Desecration being possible without units. To me, "If you succeed or fail, place a Monster or Cultist with a cost of 2 or less in the Area." is not optional, therefore it is a mandatory part of the action. The action cannot be fully completed, therefore the action is invalid.

Quote:
I'm curious though what you were wrong about regarding Thousand Forms?

That was mainly a result of me changing the wording in my head. I thought it could not be used when all opponents have 0 power, but it makes sense that you can because there's a second part to it.
 
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Adam Starks
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Sandy has contradicted himself before on these kinds of things, but either way, if Yellow Sign has done 12 Desecrations and still not won, they're probably doing something very wrong (like over-Desecrating before getting Hastur & Third Eye)
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Alex Hobbit
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The gamedesigner in me tells me, that it should force YS to Ritual at least once, as 13 ES are normally not enough for YS to win.
 
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David Andersson
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I've been on these forums so long that I knew the rules before I got the game. I've never even read the rulebook. We've been playing that Desecrations may be performed even with an empty unit pool so I never questioned it or examined the wording or anything.

(For what it's worth, that would be an interesting wrinkle in the Yellow Sign strategy, if he had to declare combat to keep recycling units back into his pool. Could be a fun house rule for people who think Yellow sign is too scripted)
 
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Mike Heil
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Alcex wrote:
Desecration is only limited by the amount of Markers you can put on the map, so 12.


Desecration is unlimited. And if your pool is empty of monsters you can still do it.
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Andy Blozinski
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"Likewise, you cannot perform a Unique Action unless you are able to do all parts of it. For example, Yellow Sign cannot perform Zingaya to Eliminate an enemy Acolyte if there are no Undead in its Pool."

This states you cannot do it.
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Benton Reis
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From the onega rule book.
Similar to the question above, but what if I want to use Ghroth, but there are NO
Acolytes in any Faction's Pool to be placed« in case of a failed roll»?
A. Then of course nothing happens if you fail! This is not similar to abilities such as Zingaya
in which you cannot use the ability, if there are no Undead in your Pool to replace the enemy
Acolyte with. With Ghroth, chance is involved-you could Eliminate enemy Cultists (which is
the main purpose of Ghroth). To be clear, the free Acolyte with Ghroth is a compensation you
cannot refuse, as explained in the previous question, because you cannot normally choose to
fulfill only part of an ability. But having no Cultists to place does not prevent you from trying a
Ghroth roll.


It doesn't exactly fit in, but might help.
 
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Mike Heil
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pollock1939 wrote:
"Likewise, you cannot perform a Unique Action unless you are able to do all parts of it. For example, Yellow Sign cannot perform Zingaya to Eliminate an enemy Acolyte if there are no Undead in its Pool."

This states you cannot do it.


Zingaya with no replacement is completely different.
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Andy Blozinski
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LordZon wrote:
pollock1939 wrote:
"Likewise, you cannot perform a Unique Action unless you are able to do all parts of it. For example, Yellow Sign cannot perform Zingaya to Eliminate an enemy Acolyte if there are no Undead in its Pool."

This states you cannot do it.


Zingaya with no replacement is completely different.


Your statement is baseless without any form of rules support.

Here's how you do it:
"A. Then of course nothing happens if you fail! This is not similar to abilities such as Zingaya in which you cannot use the ability, if there are no Undead in your Pool to replace the enemy Acolyte with. With Ghroth, chance is involved-you could Eliminate enemy Cultists (which is the main purpose of Ghroth)."

Desecrate rules: "Whether you succeed or fail, place a monster or cultist with a cost or 2 or less in the Area."

NO CHANCE is involved.
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Adam Starks
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What Desecration and Ghroth have in common is that the new unit is a reward/compensation *after* the meat of the ability, unlike Zingaya where the replacement implies that the new unit *is* the meat of the ability. The intent seems pretty clearly in favor of Yellow Sign being able to Desecrate even if they have all their units out.

As further evidence of this, I point out that Yellow Sign has no way to actually sacrifice any of their units (short of picking losing battles). If them filling up on units actually prevented them from Desecrating, I'd expect that to have come up somewhere in Sandy's strategy discussions, both as something for Yellow Sign themselves to avoid, and a potential strategy for others to stop Yellow Sign's Elder Sign generation. The fact that it's not been brought up once anywhere else implies that it's not something they need to worry about.
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Dr Gosburo Coffin
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I agree with Adam's "compensation" point of view.

In addition, please remember that two Yellow Sign spellbooks have been reworded in order to make clear that the second step listed on the cards is indeed optional. I think it's not unlikely that they simply forgot to clarify the wording of Desecrate in a similar fashon ...

Plus, it would be the only ability in the game that is limited by the count of two separate types of components (Desecration markers and Monsters in the pool).
 
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Mike Heil
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pollock1939 wrote:
LordZon wrote:
pollock1939 wrote:
"Likewise, you cannot perform a Unique Action unless you are able to do all parts of it. For example, Yellow Sign cannot perform Zingaya to Eliminate an enemy Acolyte if there are no Undead in its Pool."

This states you cannot do it.


Zingaya with no replacement is completely different.


Your statement is baseless without any form of rules support.

Here's how you do it:
"A. Then of course nothing happens if you fail! This is not similar to abilities such as Zingaya in which you cannot use the ability, if there are no Undead in your Pool to replace the enemy Acolyte with. With Ghroth, chance is involved-you could Eliminate enemy Cultists (which is the main purpose of Ghroth)."

Desecrate rules: "Whether you succeed or fail, place a monster or cultist with a cost or 2 or less in the Area."

NO CHANCE is involved.


You're asking me to defend a negative. It's your arguement. Not mine.

I can't argue what the rules DON'T state.

Furthermore, many games YS flat out couldn't win if that were the case. Which I suspect is why this issue even came up.
 
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